Problem of Evil

[Semalsia]

When I've sometimes read about the problem of evil the solution usually is that in some way evilness is not bad for you, but in fact has a good reason to exist. However, I think this is really quite irrelative and does not solve the problem.

Some things are given:
(1) There are large amounts of suffering.
(2) Nothing is impossible for God.

I'm assuming that good being would not cause needless suffering to others. I'm pretty sure you would agree with that.

Because of (2) there is no need for God to cause suffering, since there would be infinite other ways to reach same goals. To say that there is no other way for God than to cause pain to get to certain point is to assert that God has no intelligence or wisdom to go around this problem. Since, considering my assumption, a good being will only resort to causing suffering, if not being able to find other way.

From these we can draw certain conclusions. Since (1) is given, there exists only two possibilities:
(a) There is no God.
(b) God is not good. That is to say God is evil.

[infinitelord1]

one can say god allows evil. But i know what u are saying. Why would god even allow us to suffer? This is one of the reasons i hate god. Is it a choice........most certainly. I choose to hate god. Why? I have no reason to love him. He is responsible for my creation......therefore i feel he is responsible for helping me. Yet i continue to sit here on my tush and type these words on my computer screen everyday. Searching for an answer even though i know the answer will never come.

[rckllnknny]

its hard for me to explain..
but you made some good points.
keep exploring that.
try not to hold on to resentments toward God.
but if you take an honest effort on trying to understand the question Y..youll get your answers and incomprehensible wisdom i promise.
youll find your place..

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Your argument fails to factor in three things:

1. Allowing something to happen is not the same as doing that thing.
2. God, being infinitely good, also wants the best for us, and, being omniscient, may see that the best we can acheive, we must acheive through suffering, even if we don't see that.
3. God, being infinitely good, respects our free will.

[Semalsia]

[quote name='Raphgael']Your argument fails to factor in three things:

1. Allowing something to happen is not the same as doing that thing.
2. God, being infinitely good, also wants the best for us, and, being omniscient, may see that the best we can acheive, we must acheive through suffering, even if we don't see that.
3. God, being infinitely good, respects our free will.
[/quote]

1. Irrelative. Allowing suffering to happen does not fit the definition of perfect and infinite good either.

2. You missed my point. The best can be achieved in infinite other ways other than that which requires suffering, since nothing is impossible for God.

3. Free will is irrelevant to the topic, since all suffering is not related to it.

Edited July 8, 2005 by Semalsia

[Mateo el Feo]

Prayers for you guys!

Just a few of my thoughts: in my own experience, I have been tempted to pride when I am not subject to suffering. Each little cross I bear (e.g. physical suffering, financial probs, emotional prebs) has been a source of humility in me, and brought me closer to God.

I suspect that the absense of suffering (i.e. having it all) gave an opportunity for the sin of pride to creep into the angels that fell from heaven before the creation of the world.

A good metaphor for today's society is the treatment of one's body. People who desire a good physique go to the gym (aka modern torture center), lifting weights, riding treadmills, etc. The results of their constant bodily penance are stronger muscles and less fat.

Our suffering (caused by evil) has the potential to build up the virtue of humility. St. Frances de Sales wrote that building up one virtue helps strengthen all virtues in the soul (the quote is in "Introduction to the devout life):
[quote name='Intro. to the Devout Life' date=' Third Part, Chapter 1']Thus it comes about, St. Gregory Nazianzen says, that by perfect practice of a single virtue a person can reach the heights in all virtue.  He cites the example of Rahab who carefully practiced the virtue of hospitality and thus attained a high degree of glory.[/quote]
In the Holy Bible, suffering is shown as an opportunity for us to grow in our relationship with God.
[quote name='Semalsia']Free will is irrelevant to the topic, since all suffering is not related to it.[/quote]
Freewill is relevant to the discussion of evil/suffering.

Edited July 8, 2005 by Mateo el Feo

[Semalsia]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo']In the Holy Bible, suffering is shown as an opportunity for us to grow in our relationship with God.[/quote]

You missed my point. The growth can be achieved in infinite other ways other than that which requires suffering, since nothing is impossible for God.

Therefore the suffering is needless. Therefore God can't be considered good.

[quote name='Mateo el Feo']Freewill is relevant to the discussion of evil/suffering.[/quote]

There is suffering not caused by the actions of humans. Indeed, suffering exists even without humans. My point stands.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='Jul 8 2005, 06:08 PM']1. Irrelative. Allowing suffering to happen does not fit the definition of perfect and infinite good either.

2. You missed my point. The best can be achieved in infinite other ways other than that which requires suffering, since nothing is impossible for God.

3. Free will is irrelevant to the topic, since all suffering is not related to it.
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[/quote]

1. By whose definition of love? Love isn't being happy and huggy...love is making a conscious effort to give all you have for the good of another.

2. There are infinite other ways to bring good, but not the best. You said "best," not "relative good."

3. All suffering is the result of free will decisions.

[rckllnknny]

First, all suffering is NOT the result of free will decisions.

God is absolutely glorious. the suffering we encounter is that of our misunderstanding. theres reasons behind why things happen..that we are not yet aware of. everything that happens is the greatest possibility which is less than or equivalent to God. which means what we suffer had to be done for His will for OUR benefit. the more we suffer, the more our rewards. in life and in heaven.
but its easy to get lost and obsessively focused on this perspective of why bad things happen.
pray for a change. make the commitment to surrender to Gods will. have strength now to get through whats left. have faith that youre being lead to a great awakening. give others hope from your experience.
...it is the way!
AMEN.
i promise youll find your place.
God forgives you.

Edited July 9, 2005 by rckllnknny

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='rckllnknny' date='Jul 9 2005, 09:31 AM']First, all suffering is NOT the result of free will decisions.
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[/quote]

I did not mean to say that any given person's suffering is the result of his own decisions, but it is true that suffering is caused by the free decisions of mankind. Another person's free will decision may hurt me, but it's still caused by a free will decision.

[Apotheoun]

In Byzantine Catholic theology death, disease, and the corruption affecting the cosmic order, are not seen as a punishment inflicted upon man by God; instead, they are seen as a consequence of man's own voluntary withdrawal from the power of God's uncreated energies. In other words, it is man who, in cooperation with the devil, brings about the disordered desires that wound human nature, along with all the various physical and spiritual diseases afflicting mankind, and of course, it is man who brings about his own death, both the death of the body and of the soul; while it is the eternal Logos who comes in the flesh in order to heal and restore what man and the devil have damaged. [cf. John 1:14] Therefore, it is not God who inflicts suffering upon man; instead, it is man who inflicts suffering upon himself, and he has done this through his rejection of the gift of the divine life given to him at the time of his creation in the Garden of Eden, and he perpetuates it through his own malice and selfishness throughout human history. God is not the cause of death; instead, He is the Great Physician, for it is He who heals, restores, and perfects man, by giving him once again a share in the divine nature. [cf. 2nd Peter 1:4]

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='Jul 8 2005, 06:54 PM']You missed my point. The growth can be achieved in infinite other ways other than that which requires suffering, since nothing is impossible for God.

Therefore the suffering is needless. Therefore God can't be considered good.[/quote]
Could you share one of the infinite ways that you grow in the virtue of humility and remove the vice of pride from your heart without suffering?

[quote name='Semalsia' date='Jul 8 2005, 06:54 PM']There is suffering not caused by the actions of humans. Indeed, suffering exists even without humans. My point stands.
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Are you talking about the suffering of animals?

BTW, you're speaking in absolutes. There may be instances in which suffering is not directly caused by freewill; but this does not mean that freewill is unrelated to suffering.

If we look at the metaphor of light and darkness, we could compare God to the sun. If a trees cast a shadow, would the sun "cause" the shadow? I would argue that the answer is: no. An absence of light is not "caused" by a light source.

[jasJis]

Albert Einstein comments on this Good/Evil/God problem.

"Whatever there is of God and goodness in the Universe, it must work itself out and express itself through us. We cannot stand aside and let God do it."

This is from the man who also said "I am a deeply religious nonbeliever... This is somewhat of a new religion."

Analize it and you will see though Einstein didn't publiclly profess to belong to a specific religion, he certainly did not blame God for not doing what we can do for ourselves. A harsher interpretation of Albert would be "Quit your whining and toughen up and do what you can. It's your job and your responsiblity, not God's. If we aren't responsible for anything, then we are irrelevant and have no meaning and no right to existence so have no right to complain about your meaningless existence."

Edited July 9, 2005 by jasJis

[Quietfire]

First, lets get something straight.
Im not a theologian, or a scholar, or (in my own view) the sharpest crayon in the box.
Ive often asked God why I suffered through a particular situation, we all have.
But to say that you hate God?

Yes, He created you.
Like a loving parent, He also knows that you must love Him of your own free will. Not because He created you.
Like any parent that loves his child, you do your best to raise that child and know at some point that child will and must experience life on thier own. The mistakes that child makes will be their own as well. But as a loving parent you help them in any way possible. But the flip side is that we(the child) must participate in this as well. I cannot hold my parents responsible for my actions as an adult if my parents did everything in their power to raise me according to God's will.

I myself can honestly say that my parents didnt raise me according to Gods will. They did the best they could, under their own personal circumstances. But as an adult, I know now that it is up to ME to make up the difference in my life. I have been given a most profound opportunity and it is something I have taken very seriously. Not growing up with God as the center in my family has caused me to make mistakes that have led me away from God as a young adult. To lose sanctifying grace is something I never understood until recently. Once you lose that, it can pretty much hurry that downhill run, ya know what I mean?

It only takes a prayer. Really.
I didnt realize I had prayed, in the sense of "prayer".
I asked for help.
He answered. And it wasnt immediately. Fifteen years later I can look back and reflect and SEE the difference He made. Oh, I helped too (you cannot expect your parents to do everything, else you become lazy and spoiled - pride) But all glory belongs to God. Without God, I am nothing.
We are asked to examine our consciences daily. I agree. I wish I had started that and done that at an earlier age.
I love to reflect now. I look at my past and see all the damned stupid mistakes I made. All the outright slaps to the face I've given God. All the times I unknowingly turned my back on God again, and again, and again.
He never gave up on me. What a wonderful, generous, and loving Father He is.
I sit in awe that my prayer was answered at all.

You can spend your entire life searching and not find 'the answer'. Why? Were human, plain and simple. How can the finite explain the infinite. God cannot be contained in a box, for someone to break down and explain everything to ya. It doesnt work like that, sorry.
Our tiny, spec of a mind compared to His infinite perfect knowledge will never understand it all. Not while we are walking this earth. We get glimpes, yes, and those glimpes are more than what any words can descibe.
Often we bombard ourselves with so much of this world that it becomes impossible to pay any heed to the spiritual side.

This is when you must step back and away from this world.

Humans are special in the fact that in the image of Eternity(the figure 8), we straddle the center. The material on one side, the spiritual on the other. It is us who tetter where the two join. This is where the war is.
It is our physical that wars with the spiritual. Our soul belongs with God. Our soul belongs to God. But our physical gets in the way far too often. It is our spirit that cries out to God, like a child ripped from his mother, our spirit will not rest while we are in this physical world. This is where turmoil, suffering, and sin take place. And when the spirit suffers, the physical suffers too.
This is not a bad thing, if understood properly. I yearn to look upon the face of God, to have my joy complete. I know that in this life, I can only glimpse that perfection in the mere smallest of measures. But I can enjoy the beauty that He has created all around me. The sound of the wind in the trees. The rustling of leaves. The babbling brook. Have you ever laid at the foot of a tree with your head against the trunk and looked up at its majesty? When was the last time you stared at the clouds, or the stars, for that matter? When, in all honesty, was the last time you looked at an infant?
Everything to that child is new.

I will admit that for the young, this is very hard to understand. The temptations of life today are so....in your face. I pray for you to find the strength, the courage, the downright tanacity to simply walk away from the pleasures and distractions of this world for a small time each week and spend time alone with God, outside of the Mass.
Prayer takes on a whole new (old) form when done consistently, with honesty and with reverence. From prayer one can move to reflection, and from reflection one can move to contemplation.
Contemplation is the closest Ive been to God and still live in this world. It is something that cannot be explained in words that would be understood. It is perfection, to the millionth power. And that still doesnt come close.

There are times I have asked God to speed life up for me, so that I can join Him that much faster. I stopped doing that though because the more time I spend here learning about Him, the more my joy will be complete when it happens. Like a newlywed awaiting my wedding night, I want it now...but I will enjoy it all the more if I wait.
So I wait...with abated breath.

Please understand. There is nothing so horrible in this life that should separate you from God. I am living proof of that.
We are here to help, all of us.
Please dont give up.


Pax.

[Semalsia]

[quote name='Raphael']1. By whose definition of love? Love isn't being happy and huggy...love is making a conscious effort to give all you have for the good of another.

2. There are infinite other ways to bring good, but not the best. You said "best," not "relative good."

3. All suffering is the result of free will decisions.
[/quote]

1. I never mentioned love. What does that have to do with goodness?

2. God can't think of more than one way to bring the best?

3. Then show me how actions of humans cause, for example, natural disasters.

[quote name='Mateo el Feo']Could you share one of the infinite ways that you grow in the virtue of humility and remove the vice of pride from your heart without suffering?[/quote]

I don't know one, but all-knowing God should be able to know, don't you think?

[quote name='Mateo el Feo']Are you talking about the suffering of animals?[/quote]

That too. But also suffering of humans caused by non-humans (like natural disasters).

[quote]BTW, you're speaking in absolutes. There may be instances in which suffering is not directly caused by freewill; but this does not mean that freewill is unrelated to suffering.[/quote]

Sure. Fine. But I'm mainly talking about suffering that is unrelated to free will. You know, suffering that is God's fault.

[quote name='Mateo el Feo']If we look at the metaphor of light and darkness[/quote]

Are you saying that suffering is caused by the absence of God?