Problem of Evil

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Jul 11 2005, 02:47 PM']Sorry, but this statement does not make sense.  Obviously God allows suffering.  He allowed His only Son to suffer and die on a cross.  Suffering is part of life and God's plan whether we like it or not.
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Yea he certainly doesnt cause suffering.

[rckllnknny]

uggh..i hate this site, sometimes.
i dont think God encouraged Jesus to hang on some wood with nails drove through his hands and feet. it was jesuss suffering, it was Gods suffring. he was limited to freewill which was the decisions of OTHERS sin..in order for us to eventually find glorious freedom through freewill.
p.s. ya let your kid fall over in a chair on purpose and ill turn ya into child protective services.
God bless.

[Semalsia]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo']If you don't believe in good and evil, how could suffering take away from God's supreme goodness? Further, if evil doesn't exist, how could you suggest that Quietfire is describing a god as being evil?[/quote]

God isn't the supreme, if it's possible to do more good than what God is doing.

God that punishes people for not knowing that God exists doesn't qualify as being good by any moral standards.

[quote name='Mateo el Feo']I suspect that describing evil as "that which causes suffering" doesn't really fit with philosophical systems (aside from hedonism).[/quote]

Well what else is there? You define good and evil through God. Whatever God does is good by you. That's a arbitrary definition of goodness! And it leads you to think that suffering, pain and death is good. Well I'm sorry, but I can't believe such a thing.

[quote name='Mateo el Feo']my dentist is the most evil man that I know![/quote]

If the dentist could fix your teeth without causing any pain, but caused it anyway, I'm sure that would be true. God can, so He's evil.

[quote name='Mateo el Feo']Maybe this is a problem of agreement of terminology. On the other hand, how can we agree on the meaning of good and evil if you deny that good/evil exist?[/quote]

The words exist. I just don't think their definitions have any significant meaning.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='Jul 11 2005, 05:35 PM']Well what else is there? You define good and evil through God. Whatever God does is good by you. That's a arbitrary definition of goodness! And it leads you to think that suffering, pain and death is good. Well I'm sorry, but I can't believe such a thing.
The words exist. I just don't think their definitions have any significant meaning.
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So what do you think about math and science? You think they are simply just calibrations or do you think they were always there.........we just had to discover them? God doesnt act.......he is......i am who am........yahweh. If we knew what is right we would always choose to do right.......it would kind of render evil as an existing thing without any relevence to anything. It would be pointless.

[Semalsia]

[quote name='infinitelord1']So what do you think about math and science? You think they are simply just calibrations or do you think they were always there.........we just had to discover them?[/quote]

I don't know if can answer that. I think we are finding how the universe works.

[quote]If we knew what is right we would always choose to do right.......it would kind of render evil as an existing thing without any relevence to anything. It would be pointless.[/quote]

Are you saying that evil (and suffering) exists to make things more interesting? I don't know about God, but I could live without chaos.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='Jul 11 2005, 06:23 PM'][quote name='infinitelord1']So what do you think about math and science? You think they are simply just calibrations or do you think they were always there.........we just had to discover them?[/quote]

I don't know if can answer that. I think we are finding how the universe works.
Are you saying that evil (and suffering) exists to make things more interesting? I don't know about God, but I could live without chaos.
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yes and the way the universe works is very complicated.......there must have been a source behind it all.

im saying that god allowed them to exist for a reason. He certainly didnt create them though. You see god loves lucifer.......but lucifer used his free will choice to take his own throne.....not knowing what it was like without god's love. God still loves lucifer as a any father will always love his son.........as god will always love us. But we have the free will choice to join lucifer.......we dont know what its like as he didnt.........we dont really know anything.

[infinitelord1]

God doesnt do anything...........an action is bound by time.........god is not bound by time. God allows us to make decisions for ourselves. If you are asking god to prove himself to you you will never get an answer. Therefore, everything you are doing on this website is pointless. You are not going to find physical proof that god exists. God is not physical he is abstract. Even if god willed himself to a physical form and knocked on your door one day you would still not know there is a god. You would question your sanity most likely. Jesus says that there is never enough proof. Its all about faith. Jesus says that the key is in your heart.........i am trying to figure that one out myself.

[philothea]

Two very good posts, infinitelord1.

Apotheoun, as always, eloquently got right to the heart of it.

If God is perfect goodness, and He gives us free will to separate ourselves from Him -- and people choose that separation -- how can it [i]not[/i] lead to suffering?

The complexity of why a certain person suffers a certain thing is vastly beyond our ability to understand. We can't even agree on what kind of foods people should eat!

Edited July 12, 2005 by philothea

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='Jul 11 2005, 06:35 PM']Well what else is there? You define good and evil through God. Whatever God does is good by you. That's a arbitrary definition of goodness! And it leads you to think that suffering, pain and death is good. Well I'm sorry, but I can't believe such a thing.
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Semalsia,

We could talk in circles about these terms. You say that I "define good and evil through God." But, then, you turn around and put forward your own definition by defining good and evil by equating them with pleasure and suffering, respectively. My point is that you seem to be looking at good/evil from the point of view of a hedonist (i.e. pleasure=good, suffering=bad). I understand the philosophy of hedonism...I just don't subscribe to that point of view. We're at a point in which Christianity doesn't agree with hedonism.

Regarding your bringing up death: how else could we get to heaven unless we die?
[quote name='John 12:24']Amen, amen, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains just a grain of wheat; but if it dies, it produces much fruit.[/quote]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='Jul 11 2005, 06:35 PM']The words <[i]i.e. good and evil[/i]> exist. I just don't think their definitions have any significant meaning.[right][snapback]640109[/snapback][/right][/quote]
I guess I'm not following you. Earlier, you said that you don't believe in good and evil. On the other hand, you seem to attach a "significant meaning" to them: good=pleasure, bad=suffering. All I can say is that this is not the view of mainstream Christianity.

Edited July 12, 2005 by Mateo el Feo

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' date='Jul 11 2005, 07:31 PM']Semalsia,

We could talk in circles about these terms.  You say that I "define good and evil through God."  But, then, you turn around and put forward your own definition by defining good and evil by equating them with pleasure and suffering, respectively.  My point is that you seem to be looking at good/evil from the point of view of a hedonist (i.e. pleasure=good, suffering=bad).  I understand the philosophy of hedonism...I just don't subscribe to that point of view.  We're at a point in which Christianity doesn't agree with hedonism.

Regarding your bringing up death: how else could we get to heaven unless we die?

I guess I'm not following you.  Earlier, you said that you don't believe in good and evil.  On the other hand, you seem to attach a "significant meaning" to them: good=pleasure, bad=suffering.  All I can say is that this is not the view of mainstream Christianity.
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i agree with what this guy says semalsia,
you are defining god based on how you think he is. This is a classic example of things become subjective in this world........people's feelings and thoughts tend to stray them away from the one and only truth. Morality is not subjective.........it is objective. It is always wrong for someone to murder someone.........it isnt ok for some to murder and wrong for others........it doesnt matter about how a person feels about things..........obviously some are driven to murder people because of their feelings........others dont feel the need to murder so they dont (or of course they dont because of morality). Let me ask you another question semalsia.........where do you think morality came from?

[infinitelord1]

another thing i would like to add to all of this.........if you do research on other religions like buddhism and hinduism............you will find that there version of morality is subjective (based on how one feels). They also are subjective when they suggest that there are many different roads to enlightenment. We have to admit that there are things in life that are objective.......here is a classic example........2+2=4.........if you were to believe otherwise you would be wrong. Sin is more than just going against the will of god........sin is also the opposite of the truth. If you were taught that 2+2=5 that would be a sin.........however, i dont believe that you would go to hell for something like this. Even though we might not know the reason for why something is wrong.........we have to have faith in god because he knows.

[Semalsia]

[quote name='infinitelord1']But we have the free will choice to join lucifer.......we dont know what its like as he didnt.........we dont really know anything.[/quote]

So non-catholics don't really know what they are doing? You know, everyone thinks they are doing the right thing. But if they don't have enough information, then obviously they are likely to make decisions they will later regret. Like joining Lucifer (/going to Hell). So humans are basically incapable of making good decisions, but are still punished for the mistakes they make. Fine, people choose Hell themselfs, but only in Hell can they realize that they have made a mistake. But it's too late then, people will suffer eternity for the (honest) mistakes they could not have avoided doing. If God would not forgive (what is there to forgive?!) and accept them into Heaven, that would mean God were somehow angry at them for not obeying Him in the first place.

Humans have made their decisions about what is right in this life, just at the time when they are incapable of making them. Still God demands absolute obedience even though people don't even understand it. You don't see how cruel that is? God is kicking his dog. The dog doesn't know better.

[quote name='infinitelord1']where do you think morality came from?[/quote]

Humans made it up. History of ethics is quite revealing.

[quote name='Mateo el Feo']Regarding your bringing up death: how else could we get to heaven unless we die?[/quote]

Exactly. You have glorified death and it's sick. For you it's the way to Heaven. For me it's the worst thing imaginable.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='Jul 12 2005, 07:08 PM']So non-catholics don't really know what they are doing? You know, everyone thinks they are doing the right thing. But if they don't have enough information, then obviously they are likely to make decisions they will later regret. Like joining Lucifer (/going to Hell). So humans are basically incapable of making good decisions, but are still punished for the mistakes they make. Fine, people choose Hell themselfs, but only in Hell can they realize that they have made a mistake. But it's too late then, people will suffer eternity for the (honest) mistakes they could not have avoided doing. If God would not forgive (what is there to forgive?!) and accept them into Heaven, that would mean God were somehow angry at them for not obeying Him in the first place.

Humans have made their decisions about what is right in this life, just at the time when they are incapable of making them. Still God demands absolute obedience even though people don't even understand it. You don't see how cruel that is? God is kicking his dog. The dog doesn't know better.[/quote]

People have all the knowledge they need to get to heaven. If they willfully choose to ignore it, that is their choice. And as Catholics we beleive that the invincibly ignorant may be given a chance at salvation.

[quote]Humans made it up. History of ethics is quite revealing.
[/quote]

Then nothing can really be right or wrong; it is all totally subjective. By this logic, a Nazi "morality" is just as good as any other morality, and we have no reason to condemn anyone's actions.

[quote][quote name='Mateo el Feo']Regarding your bringing up death: how else could we get to heaven unless we die?[/quote]

Exactly. You have glorified death and it's sick. For you it's the way to Heaven. For me it's the worst thing imaginable.
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Christians do not "glorify death." Note that we are at the forefront of efforts to protect human life, whether that of the unborn, the elderly, the brain-damaged, etc., and fight the "culture of death." We simply beleive that death is an evil which Christ has overcome, and through his merits, we can enter into a new life with Him.

Death is inevitable for all of us - the only difference is that the Christian sees hope beyond death, while you do not.

Edited July 13, 2005 by Socrates

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='Jul 12 2005, 07:08 PM']Humans made it up. History of ethics is quite revealing.

[quote name='Mateo el Feo']Regarding your bringing up death: how else could we get to heaven unless we die?[/quote]

Exactly. You have glorified death and it's sick. For you it's the way to Heaven. For me it's the worst thing imaginable.
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Is it logical to assume that one day a bunch of people all gathered in a circle in there thongs and talked with each other about what they thought was right and wrong? If this really happened then how do you explain things like sex before marriage etc. to be considered morally wrong. Most people certainly dont act like it is wrong.......they act on what they feel so they have sex before marriage. I am sure there are more things out there that are considered morally wrong that have a reason for being wrong that we cant explain. I hope you understand what i am saying. If humans sat around, like i said before, and made morality up.......things that were pleasurable would be right and things that caused pain would be wrong. Sex is a good example........it is pleasurable but it is only right if it is used in the right context. So my next question to you semalsia.......how and why did humans come up with the "concept" of sex being wrong before marriage?

Edited July 13, 2005 by infinitelord1

[Apotheoun]

This thread appears to be going nowhere.