Thy Geekdom Come Posted July 10, 2005 Share Posted July 10, 2005 [quote]1. I never mentioned love. What does that have to do with goodness? 2. God can't think of more than one way to bring the best? 3. Then show me how actions of humans cause, for example, natural disasters. [/quote] 1. Sorry, being the lover of mystical theology I am, I see love as the ultimate good. Allow me to re-argue. Why does allowing suffering oppose good? 2. You think there are two bests or two ways to reach it? There can be only one "best." 3. I cannot show you with science or logic. I can only say that our sins cause a fallen world. Former Abbot Primate Marcel Rooney, one of my old teachers, told us that had we not fallen, we would still see natural disasters...but they wouldn't be disasters, nor would they harm us. Our sins weakened us, not necessarily the weather and geological patterns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted July 10, 2005 Share Posted July 10, 2005 A world without suffering would make us soft and weak. God does not spoil those He loves, but trains them for heroism. No pain. no gain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mateo el Feo Posted July 10, 2005 Share Posted July 10, 2005 [quote name='Semalsia' date='Jul 9 2005, 08:25 PM']I don't know one, but all-knowing God should be able to know, don't you think?[/quote] When you said "infinite ways," I thought you might have one or two in mind. [quote name='Semalsia' date='Jul 9 2005, 08:25 PM']Are you saying that suffering is caused by the absence of God?[right][snapback]637698[/snapback][/right][/quote] Light would be a metaphor for goodness. Evil (i.e. a shadow) is caused by the absence of God. [quote name='Semalsia' date='Jul 9 2005, 08:25 PM']Sure. Fine. But I'm mainly talking about suffering that is unrelated to free will. You know, suffering that is God's fault.[/quote] Is it your belief that this suffering is inherently evil? I see you using "evil" and "suffering" interchangebly. Do you believe that God's allowing someone to suffer and die a natural death goes against His supreme goodness? I don't even have to be so dramatic as to use an example of death. If I suffer from a rumbling stomach, telling me to look for the nearest MacDonald's, does God's allowing me to suffer a "Mac-attack" take away from His supreme goodness? I see a problem in your first post's assumption: [quote]I'm assuming that good being would not cause needless suffering to others.[/quote] I have trouble understanding how you can know with certainty that any suffering is needless. At the moment of St. Paul's conversion, he suffered temporary blindness--that was God's doing. I suspect St. Paul wasn't too happy about that! Regarding Socrates' post, it reminded me of a passage in the Letter to the Hebrews: [quote name='Hebrews 12:3-14']Consider how he ([i]Jesus[/i]) endured such opposition from sinners, in order that you may not grow weary and lose heart. In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood. You have also forgotten the exhortation addressed to you as sons: "My son, do not disdain the discipline of the Lord or lose heart when reproved by him; for whom the Lord loves, he disciplines; he scourges every son he acknowledges." Endure your trials as "discipline"; God treats you as sons. For what "son" is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are without discipline, in which all have shared, you are not sons but bastards. Besides this, we have had our earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them. Should we not (then) submit all the more to the Father of spirits and live? They disciplined us for a short time as seemed right to them, but he does so for our benefit, in order that we may share his holiness. At the time, all discipline seems a cause not for joy but for pain, yet later it brings the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who are trained by it. So strengthen your drooping hands and your weak knees. Make straight paths for your feet, that what is lame may not be dislocated but healed. Strive for peace with everyone, and for that holiness without which no one will see the Lord.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted July 10, 2005 Share Posted July 10, 2005 semalsia, what do you think the odds are that god exists? Do think there is more evidence that points to god not existing or more that points to god existing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quietfire Posted July 10, 2005 Share Posted July 10, 2005 Someone once wrote: I would rather live my life thinking there is a God only to die and discover there isnt, Than to live my life thinking there is no God only to die and discover there is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Semalsia Posted July 10, 2005 Author Share Posted July 10, 2005 [quote name='Raphael']1. Sorry, being the lover of mystical theology I am, I see love as the ultimate good. Allow me to re-argue. Why does allowing suffering oppose good? 2. You think there are two bests or two ways to reach it? There can be only one "best." [/quote] 1. How does deliberate causing of harm and suffering unnecessarily fit the definition of good? It is unnecessary, because God is supposed to be able to get the exactly same results without the suffering. If he can't, then He's not a god. 2. If it causes (needless) suffering then it obviously isn't the best. [quote name='Mateo el Feo']When you said "infinite ways," I thought you might have one or two in mind[/quote] When a child misbehaves, is the correct way to teach the child by the use of violence? Of course not. Violence is only used by those who can't think of a better way to get certain results. A being smart and patient enough would find another way, in this case probably talking, explaining and making the child understand what you want him to understand. Since God is a god there will always be another way of getting some result. [quote name='Mateo el Feo']Is it your belief that this suffering is inherently evil? I see you using "evil" and "suffering" interchangebly.[/quote] I don't believe in evil/good. I'm just using evil to describe that which causes suffering. [quote]Do you believe that God's allowing someone to suffer and die a natural death goes against His supreme goodness? [/quote] Yes, it does. A person who just does nothing to help even if he could is not the supreme good. [quote name='Mateo el Feo']I have trouble understanding how you can know with certainty that any suffering is needless[/quote] How could any suffering be justified? Unless you believe in utilitarianism I really don't see how. In any case, goodness is lost when you ignore others' suffering. [quote name='infinitelord1']what do you think the odds are that god exists?[/quote] The same as with 1+1 being 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Semalsia Posted July 10, 2005 Author Share Posted July 10, 2005 [quote name='Quietfire']I would rather live my life thinking there is a God only to die and discover there isnt, Than to live my life thinking there is no God only to die and discover there is.[/quote] Sounds like someone who was afraid of (the possibility of) god. If God is supreme good, then there should be no reason for that. In fact, sounds like you are describing a evil god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mateo el Feo Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 [quote name='Semalsia' date='Jul 10 2005, 05:43 PM']I don't believe in evil/good. I'm just using evil to describe that which causes suffering.[right][snapback]638636[/snapback][/right] [/quote] If you don't believe in good and evil, how could suffering take away from God's supreme goodness? Further, if evil doesn't exist, how could you suggest that Quietfire is describing a god as being evil? I suspect that describing evil as "that which causes suffering" doesn't really fit with philosophical systems (aside from hedonism). If this definition was sufficient, my dentist is the most evil man that I know! And I give him my money for him to commit his the evil acts! LOL. Maybe this is a problem of agreement of terminology. On the other hand, how can we agree on the meaning of good and evil if you deny that good/evil exist? Just for some reading pleasure, the following is the entry [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06636b.htm"]<Good> at the Catholic Encyclopedia (link)[/url]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mateo el Feo Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 [quote name='Semalsia' date='Jul 10 2005, 05:43 PM']How could any suffering be justified? Unless you believe in utilitarianism I really don't see how. In any case, goodness is lost when you ignore others' suffering.[right][snapback]638636[/snapback][/right][/quote] I need you to talk with my dentist. He's been ignoring my suffering for years! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pio Nono Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 JMJ 7/10 - Fifteenth Sunday Pardon my interruption (I haven't been involved as yet), but I point you to an encyclical of John Paul II... [url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_11021984_salvifici-doloris_en.html"]Salvifici Doloris[/url] (On the Chrisian Meaning of Human Suffering) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rckllnknny Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 (edited) socrates:A world without suffering would make us soft and weak God does not spoil those He loves, but trains them for heroism. GOD does not allow suffering. angels dint even suffer. could you stand back and let your child fall off a chair and not do anything about it? quiet fire: Someone once wrote: I would rather live my life thinking there is a God only to die and discover there isnt, Than to live my life thinking there is no God only to die and discover there is. ..ive thought about that too. it opens door at least huh?? infinitelord..its about faith. life will drag you through your bitter end. faith will be the only thing left for you too hold your hand out to..to save your life.youll come to point in time where trusting a world that we cannot see is the only possibility. because it is of a spiritual realm and not physical. its all youll have left to hold on to your insanity. then youll see things and hear things you never have before in a way you cant explain. that is the awakening. everything will fall into place and make sense. what people say will have deeper meaning. and sooner or later you will just KNOW. open your heart up to the possiblity. God will show you the rest. as long as youre willing, your life is gonna change. its gonna be amazing. love you..brother and God bless. Edited July 11, 2005 by rckllnknny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 God created man as a free being, as a true [i]eikon Theô[/i], and this freedom contains within it the radical possibility that man may abuse his power, and act against the good. Evil is a consequence of man's own free choice to leave the divine path of [i]theosis[/i] and attempt to achieve his own end without God. This primordial "fall" of man, had cosmic effects, because, as the priest of creation, man's purpose was to sanctify all of that exists. But instead of participating in the divine energies as he was created to do, man closed himself off to God's power, and in the process he brought about the corruption of the whole cosmic order. Evil had its origin in man's own disordered actions, but through the incarnation of the eternal Logos, God Himself came to the rescue and restored what man and the devil had corrupted, and in the process He opened up created existence to its own transformation by its assimilation to the uncreated life and glory of the Trinity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 [quote name='rckllnknny' date='Jul 11 2005, 11:21 AM']socrates:A world without suffering would make us soft and weak God does not spoil those He loves, but trains them for heroism. GOD does not allow suffering. angels dint even suffer. could you stand back and let your child fall off a chair and not do anything about it? [/quote] Sorry, but this statement does not make sense. Obviously God allows suffering. He allowed His only Son to suffer and die on a cross. Suffering is part of life and God's plan whether we like it or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 [quote] could you stand back and let your child fall off a chair and not do anything about it?[/quote] to teach him a lesson, why not... he'll llearn not to lean his chair back so much next time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 [quote name='Semalsia' date='Jul 10 2005, 04:49 PM'][quote name='Quietfire']I would rather live my life thinking there is a God only to die and discover there isnt, Than to live my life thinking there is no God only to die and discover there is.[/quote] Sounds like someone who was afraid of (the possibility of) god. If God is supreme good, then there should be no reason for that. In fact, sounds like you are describing a evil god. [right][snapback]638643[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I dont see the connection here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now