Problem of Evil

[Semalsia]

[quote name='Raphael']1. Sorry, being the lover of mystical theology I am, I see love as the ultimate good. Allow me to re-argue. Why does allowing suffering oppose good?

2. You think there are two bests or two ways to reach it? There can be only one "best."
[/quote]

1. How does deliberate causing of harm and suffering unnecessarily fit the definition of good? It is unnecessary, because God is supposed to be able to get the exactly same results without the suffering. If he can't, then He's not a god.

2. If it causes (needless) suffering then it obviously isn't the best.


[quote name='Mateo el Feo']When you said "infinite ways," I thought you might have one or two in mind[/quote]

When a child misbehaves, is the correct way to teach the child by the use of violence? Of course not. Violence is only used by those who can't think of a better way to get certain results. A being smart and patient enough would find another way, in this case probably talking, explaining and making the child understand what you want him to understand. Since God is a god there will always be another way of getting some result.

[quote name='Mateo el Feo']Is it your belief that this suffering is inherently evil? I see you using "evil" and "suffering" interchangebly.[/quote]

I don't believe in evil/good. I'm just using evil to describe that which causes suffering.

[quote]Do you believe that God's allowing someone to suffer and die a natural death goes against His supreme goodness? [/quote]

Yes, it does. A person who just does nothing to help even if he could is not the supreme good.

[quote name='Mateo el Feo']I have trouble understanding how you can know with certainty that any suffering is needless[/quote]

How could any suffering be justified? Unless you believe in utilitarianism I really don't see how. In any case, goodness is lost when you ignore others' suffering.

[quote name='infinitelord1']what do you think the odds are that god exists?[/quote]

The same as with 1+1 being 3.

[Semalsia]

[quote name='Quietfire']I would rather live my life thinking there is a God only to die and discover there isnt,
Than to live my life thinking there is no God only to die and discover there is.[/quote]

Sounds like someone who was afraid of (the possibility of) god. If God is supreme good, then there should be no reason for that.

In fact, sounds like you are describing a evil god.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='Jul 10 2005, 05:43 PM']I don't believe in evil/good. I'm just using evil to describe that which causes suffering.[right][snapback]638636[/snapback][/right]
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If you don't believe in good and evil, how could suffering take away from God's supreme goodness? Further, if evil doesn't exist, how could you suggest that Quietfire is describing a god as being evil?

I suspect that describing evil as "that which causes suffering" doesn't really fit with philosophical systems (aside from hedonism). If this definition was sufficient, my dentist is the most evil man that I know! And I give him my money for him to commit his the evil acts! LOL.

Maybe this is a problem of agreement of terminology. On the other hand, how can we agree on the meaning of good and evil if you deny that good/evil exist?

Just for some reading pleasure, the following is the entry [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06636b.htm"]<Good> at the Catholic Encyclopedia (link)[/url].

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='Jul 10 2005, 05:43 PM']How could any suffering be justified? Unless you believe in utilitarianism I really don't see how. In any case, goodness is lost when you ignore others' suffering.[right][snapback]638636[/snapback][/right][/quote]
I need you to talk with my dentist. He's been ignoring my suffering for years!

[Pio Nono]

JMJ
7/10 - Fifteenth Sunday

Pardon my interruption (I haven't been involved as yet), but I point you to an encyclical of John Paul II...

[url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_11021984_salvifici-doloris_en.html"]Salvifici Doloris[/url] (On the Chrisian Meaning of Human Suffering)

[rckllnknny]

socrates:A world without suffering would make us soft and weak God does not spoil those He loves, but trains them for heroism.

GOD does not allow suffering. angels dint even suffer. could you stand back and let your child fall off a chair and not do anything about it?

quiet fire:
Someone once wrote:

I would rather live my life thinking there is a God only to die and discover there isnt,
Than to live my life thinking there is no God only to die and discover there is.

..ive thought about that too. it opens door at least huh??

infinitelord..its about faith. life will drag you through your bitter end. faith will be the only thing left for you too hold your hand out to..to save your life.youll come to point in time where trusting a world that we cannot see is the only possibility. because it is of a spiritual realm and not physical. its all youll have left to hold on to your insanity. then youll see things and hear things you never have before in a way you cant explain. that is the awakening. everything will fall into place and make sense. what people say will have deeper meaning. and sooner or later you will just KNOW. open your heart up to the possiblity. God will show you the rest. as long as youre willing, your life is gonna change. its gonna be amazing. love you..brother and God bless.

Edited July 11, 2005 by rckllnknny

[Apotheoun]

God created man as a free being, as a true [i]eikon Theô[/i], and this freedom contains within it the radical possibility that man may abuse his power, and act against the good. Evil is a consequence of man's own free choice to leave the divine path of [i]theosis[/i] and attempt to achieve his own end without God. This primordial "fall" of man, had cosmic effects, because, as the priest of creation, man's purpose was to sanctify all of that exists. But instead of participating in the divine energies as he was created to do, man closed himself off to God's power, and in the process he brought about the corruption of the whole cosmic order. Evil had its origin in man's own disordered actions, but through the incarnation of the eternal Logos, God Himself came to the rescue and restored what man and the devil had corrupted, and in the process He opened up created existence to its own transformation by its assimilation to the uncreated life and glory of the Trinity.

[Socrates]

[quote name='rckllnknny' date='Jul 11 2005, 11:21 AM']socrates:A world without suffering would make us soft and weak God does not spoil those He loves, but trains them for heroism.

GOD does not allow suffering. angels dint even suffer.  could you stand back and let your child fall off a chair and not do anything about it?

[/quote]

Sorry, but this statement does not make sense. Obviously God allows suffering. He allowed His only Son to suffer and die on a cross. Suffering is part of life and God's plan whether we like it or not.

[Aloysius]

[quote] could you stand back and let your child fall off a chair and not do anything about it?[/quote]

to teach him a lesson, why not... he'll llearn not to lean his chair back so much next time.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='Jul 10 2005, 04:49 PM'][quote name='Quietfire']I would rather live my life thinking there is a God only to die and discover there isnt,
Than to live my life thinking there is no God only to die and discover there is.[/quote]

Sounds like someone who was afraid of (the possibility of) god. If God is supreme good, then there should be no reason for that.

In fact, sounds like you are describing a evil god.
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I dont see the connection here.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Jul 11 2005, 02:47 PM']Sorry, but this statement does not make sense.  Obviously God allows suffering.  He allowed His only Son to suffer and die on a cross.  Suffering is part of life and God's plan whether we like it or not.
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Yea he certainly doesnt cause suffering.

[rckllnknny]

uggh..i hate this site, sometimes.
i dont think God encouraged Jesus to hang on some wood with nails drove through his hands and feet. it was jesuss suffering, it was Gods suffring. he was limited to freewill which was the decisions of OTHERS sin..in order for us to eventually find glorious freedom through freewill.
p.s. ya let your kid fall over in a chair on purpose and ill turn ya into child protective services.
God bless.

[Semalsia]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo']If you don't believe in good and evil, how could suffering take away from God's supreme goodness? Further, if evil doesn't exist, how could you suggest that Quietfire is describing a god as being evil?[/quote]

God isn't the supreme, if it's possible to do more good than what God is doing.

God that punishes people for not knowing that God exists doesn't qualify as being good by any moral standards.

[quote name='Mateo el Feo']I suspect that describing evil as "that which causes suffering" doesn't really fit with philosophical systems (aside from hedonism).[/quote]

Well what else is there? You define good and evil through God. Whatever God does is good by you. That's a arbitrary definition of goodness! And it leads you to think that suffering, pain and death is good. Well I'm sorry, but I can't believe such a thing.

[quote name='Mateo el Feo']my dentist is the most evil man that I know![/quote]

If the dentist could fix your teeth without causing any pain, but caused it anyway, I'm sure that would be true. God can, so He's evil.

[quote name='Mateo el Feo']Maybe this is a problem of agreement of terminology. On the other hand, how can we agree on the meaning of good and evil if you deny that good/evil exist?[/quote]

The words exist. I just don't think their definitions have any significant meaning.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='Jul 11 2005, 05:35 PM']Well what else is there? You define good and evil through God. Whatever God does is good by you. That's a arbitrary definition of goodness! And it leads you to think that suffering, pain and death is good. Well I'm sorry, but I can't believe such a thing.
The words exist. I just don't think their definitions have any significant meaning.
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So what do you think about math and science? You think they are simply just calibrations or do you think they were always there.........we just had to discover them? God doesnt act.......he is......i am who am........yahweh. If we knew what is right we would always choose to do right.......it would kind of render evil as an existing thing without any relevence to anything. It would be pointless.

[Semalsia]

[quote name='infinitelord1']So what do you think about math and science? You think they are simply just calibrations or do you think they were always there.........we just had to discover them?[/quote]

I don't know if can answer that. I think we are finding how the universe works.

[quote]If we knew what is right we would always choose to do right.......it would kind of render evil as an existing thing without any relevence to anything. It would be pointless.[/quote]

Are you saying that evil (and suffering) exists to make things more interesting? I don't know about God, but I could live without chaos.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='Jul 11 2005, 06:23 PM'][quote name='infinitelord1']So what do you think about math and science? You think they are simply just calibrations or do you think they were always there.........we just had to discover them?[/quote]

I don't know if can answer that. I think we are finding how the universe works.
Are you saying that evil (and suffering) exists to make things more interesting? I don't know about God, but I could live without chaos.
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yes and the way the universe works is very complicated.......there must have been a source behind it all.

im saying that god allowed them to exist for a reason. He certainly didnt create them though. You see god loves lucifer.......but lucifer used his free will choice to take his own throne.....not knowing what it was like without god's love. God still loves lucifer as a any father will always love his son.........as god will always love us. But we have the free will choice to join lucifer.......we dont know what its like as he didnt.........we dont really know anything.

[infinitelord1]

God doesnt do anything...........an action is bound by time.........god is not bound by time. God allows us to make decisions for ourselves. If you are asking god to prove himself to you you will never get an answer. Therefore, everything you are doing on this website is pointless. You are not going to find physical proof that god exists. God is not physical he is abstract. Even if god willed himself to a physical form and knocked on your door one day you would still not know there is a god. You would question your sanity most likely. Jesus says that there is never enough proof. Its all about faith. Jesus says that the key is in your heart.........i am trying to figure that one out myself.

[philothea]

Two very good posts, infinitelord1.

Apotheoun, as always, eloquently got right to the heart of it.

If God is perfect goodness, and He gives us free will to separate ourselves from Him -- and people choose that separation -- how can it [i]not[/i] lead to suffering?

The complexity of why a certain person suffers a certain thing is vastly beyond our ability to understand. We can't even agree on what kind of foods people should eat!

Edited July 12, 2005 by philothea

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='Jul 11 2005, 06:35 PM']Well what else is there? You define good and evil through God. Whatever God does is good by you. That's a arbitrary definition of goodness! And it leads you to think that suffering, pain and death is good. Well I'm sorry, but I can't believe such a thing.
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Semalsia,

We could talk in circles about these terms. You say that I "define good and evil through God." But, then, you turn around and put forward your own definition by defining good and evil by equating them with pleasure and suffering, respectively. My point is that you seem to be looking at good/evil from the point of view of a hedonist (i.e. pleasure=good, suffering=bad). I understand the philosophy of hedonism...I just don't subscribe to that point of view. We're at a point in which Christianity doesn't agree with hedonism.

Regarding your bringing up death: how else could we get to heaven unless we die?
[quote name='John 12:24']Amen, amen, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains just a grain of wheat; but if it dies, it produces much fruit.[/quote]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='Jul 11 2005, 06:35 PM']The words <[i]i.e. good and evil[/i]> exist. I just don't think their definitions have any significant meaning.[right][snapback]640109[/snapback][/right][/quote]
I guess I'm not following you. Earlier, you said that you don't believe in good and evil. On the other hand, you seem to attach a "significant meaning" to them: good=pleasure, bad=suffering. All I can say is that this is not the view of mainstream Christianity.

Edited July 12, 2005 by Mateo el Feo

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' date='Jul 11 2005, 07:31 PM']Semalsia,

We could talk in circles about these terms.  You say that I "define good and evil through God."  But, then, you turn around and put forward your own definition by defining good and evil by equating them with pleasure and suffering, respectively.  My point is that you seem to be looking at good/evil from the point of view of a hedonist (i.e. pleasure=good, suffering=bad).  I understand the philosophy of hedonism...I just don't subscribe to that point of view.  We're at a point in which Christianity doesn't agree with hedonism.

Regarding your bringing up death: how else could we get to heaven unless we die?

I guess I'm not following you.  Earlier, you said that you don't believe in good and evil.  On the other hand, you seem to attach a "significant meaning" to them: good=pleasure, bad=suffering.  All I can say is that this is not the view of mainstream Christianity.
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i agree with what this guy says semalsia,
you are defining god based on how you think he is. This is a classic example of things become subjective in this world........people's feelings and thoughts tend to stray them away from the one and only truth. Morality is not subjective.........it is objective. It is always wrong for someone to murder someone.........it isnt ok for some to murder and wrong for others........it doesnt matter about how a person feels about things..........obviously some are driven to murder people because of their feelings........others dont feel the need to murder so they dont (or of course they dont because of morality). Let me ask you another question semalsia.........where do you think morality came from?