StMichael Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Jul 28 2005, 09:13 PM']*is ashamed of PM at the moment* It seems like the heart of what DeeDee was saying is that she has not encountered the charity and caring heart proper to Christians in her experience on this site. While you can't expect too much of this in debates, you would think that this thread at least would manifest it. I'll probably be called a hypocrite or something for speaking my mind, but I'm just concerned because I don't remember PM being like this. Peace. [right][snapback]663239[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I do not understand why you are ashamed. The thread starter came in here trying to measure the temprature with a ruler. I've said it once, I'll say it again, there is no hair splitting when it comes to the faith. It is what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanCath Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Jul 28 2005, 11:47 PM']She is entitled to her feelings and so are we. You can't expect us to agree with someone just to make them feel good and accepted. We are to preach the truth with love. Some people are not ready for the truth yet [right][snapback]663269[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I never once said in my post that we should agree with her to make her feel accepted. Do not put words in my mouth (so-to-speak). I simply feel that some people in this thread have NOT been charitable at all. I believe that most of these posts have not taken into consideration that perhaps this person actually came here to learn, and too seek the Truth. In stead of feeling compassion for this person who is obviously being deceived, this thread has simply poked at her ignorence. There is NOTHING edifying about this thread. And THAT I fine shameful. I have read Deedee's posts and this person does not seem like the type (that sometimes posts here) who comes with a pile of arguments to try to convince us we are wrong... It seems to me that she is trying to understand WHY we believe what we know as Truth. I think things would be much more edifying if we stopped poking at her ignorance (50 people don't need to tell one person how stupid one is...). Find another way to get to her. While for us, Scripture is enough to persuade us... it is not the case for everyone. So, yeah, stop throwing scripture at this person, find out what kind of evidence will convince her. By the way, I would recommend EVERYONE to read this AWESOME book by Patrick Madrid called [i]Search and Rescue[/i].... you might learn a thing or too about using apologetics... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanCath Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 Raphael, that was brilliantly said. My thoughts exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 [quote name='StMichael' date='Jul 28 2005, 09:59 PM']I do not understand why you are ashamed. The thread starter came in here trying to measure the temprature with a ruler. I've said it once, I'll say it again, there is no hair splitting when it comes to the faith. It is what it is. [right][snapback]663281[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Well, my issue is not about correct doctrine, it's about attitude. Even if you are correct, your attitude often determines whether or not the person will respect what you have to say. Of course I agree, the faith is what it is, no compromise. But the opinions of honest and sincere people deserve some respect even if you believe they are in error. That's the part I'm hung up about. I can remember a thread a year and a half ago with a Catholic who thought gay marriage was ok. The thread was remarkably charitable. I wonder if that thread were started today how it would look. I'm scared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 [quote name='Raphael' date='Jul 28 2005, 09:58 PM']Did this person even have a chance to explain her views? Couldn't we have dealt with her patiently? Some would say I've gotten soft, but we need more prudence...we know where we stand. We don't need to jump around and shout about our orthodoxy and how bitterly we oppose heterodoxy. Let your yes mean yes and your no mean no...I don't see the point in adding so much emphasis and jumping to conclusions. If there was heterodoxy (I'm not familiar with the views held by the poster), then with patient dialogue, we could have won a soul for Christ. However, in our ardent desire to act for orthodoxy, there was a great deal of talk about orthodoxy, what it is, and *that* it's better than heterodoxy...but there was little talk of *why* orthodoxy is correct, there was little of trying to engage in discussion over the issues involved, there was little more than saying "orthodoxy is right and heterodoxy is wrong." A long time ago, I was heterodox...very heterodox. It was because I didn't know Church teaching. If someone had simply jumped around shouting, "you're wrong, we're right," then I would not be where I am today. Luckily, however, I had the faith explained to me, not the politics pushed on me. We must enlighten and discipline, not blind and torture. [right][snapback]663279[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Amen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StMichael Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Jul 28 2005, 10:16 PM']Well, my issue is not about correct doctrine, it's about attitude. Even if you are correct, your attitude often determines whether or not the person will respect what you have to say. Of course I agree, the faith is what it is, no compromise. But the opinions of honest and sincere people deserve some respect even if you believe they are in error. That's the part I'm hung up about. I can remember a thread a year and a half ago with a Catholic who thought gay marriage was ok. The thread was remarkably charitable. I wonder if that thread were started today how it would look. I'm scared. [right][snapback]663299[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Truth is truth. No disrespect was shown to the thread starter. She/ he found an exuse to leave. One has to be open to the message of the faith, not tricked into it. Lying or smoothing over the truth does little to ensure the strength of the faith. If someone was to ask if gay "marriage" was OK, the answer is no. Yes, there are further details as to why, but the answer is still no. Catholics are not liberal nor conservative. I see nothing wrong with that statement. Maybe she/ he was chided by the obedient part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanCath Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 [quote name='StMichael' date='Jul 29 2005, 12:24 AM']Lying or smoothing over the truth does little to ensure the strength of the faith. [right][snapback]663305[/snapback][/right] [/quote] No one is saying ANYTHING about smoothing over the Truth or Lying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1337 k4th0l1x0r Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 I don't see how you can be disappointed in phatmass here. She waited for three posts until she found something that she construed to be offensive. Just because she was offended by it doesn't mean that what was said was offensive. The first message was about there not being a liberal or conservative Catholic. The second was an experience by someone who has had a positive experience from phatmass and has been having liberal views changing recently. The third included a bible quote and that is probably what was found offensive. The quote is strong, but it emphasizes that those with the faith but aren't obedient are not enemies rather they are brothers. The original poster threw her hands up after this and left. The original poster wasn't looking to debate an issue rather she was looking for an affirmation that it's okay to hold heterodox beliefs. I wouldn't expect any faithful Catholic on phatmass to affirm that and she left before we could really explain the importance of orthodoxy. The 'burden' of being open to the faith is on the individual, not the group Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 [quote name='StMichael' date='Jul 28 2005, 10:24 PM']Truth is truth. No disrespect was shown to the thread starter. She/ he found an exuse to leave. One has to be open to the message of the faith, not tricked into it. Lying or smoothing over the truth does little to ensure the strength of the faith. If someone was to ask if gay "marriage" was OK, the answer is no. Yes, there are further details as to why, but the answer is still no. Catholics are not liberal nor conservative. I see nothing wrong with that statement. Maybe she/ he was chided by the obedient part. [right][snapback]663305[/snapback][/right] [/quote] All I'm talking about is the difference between: 1. Homosexuality is an abomination and gays ought to repent... etc.. The Church condemns homosexual marriage so you aren't Catholic.. etc. verses. 2. The Church teaches that homosexual acts are instrinsically disordered because... [give sound reasons]... But the Church also calls her faithful to love those fellow children of God who may bear the cross of same-sex attraction... etc.. No watering down is necessary, just better explainations of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 she posted in an ironmonk thread... lol enough said? ironmonk's style is very blunt sometimes. anyway, she posted in the debate table about gay marriage. she felt overwhelmed with the responses all attempting to prove her wrong and decided that the people who posted them must be cold hearted because they believe homosexual acts are sinful. feeling ashamed of pm seems to just be playing into her game, because really really look at the posts replying to her in the debate table. other than ironmonk's very charecteristic "you are ignorant of scripture" stuff (we should really have like, a warning sign for him ) everyone stayed talking objectively about the topic. she, on the other hand, did not. she responded with ad hominem attacks. she did not defend her position... I mean if you're on a catholic debate table posting that catholic teaching on gay marriage is wrong, you should be prepared to defend yourself, give reasons, and/or refute our points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luthien Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 There is a happy medium. Speaking truth, with kindness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Jul 28 2005, 11:38 PM']All I'm talking about is the difference between: 1. Homosexuality is an abomination and gays ought to repent... etc.. The Church condemns homosexual marriage so you aren't Catholic.. etc. verses. 2. The Church teaches that homosexual acts are instrinsically disordered because... [give sound reasons]... But the Church also calls her faithful to love those fellow children of God who may bear the cross of same-sex attraction... etc.. No watering down is necessary, just better explainations of things. [right][snapback]663311[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Agreed, I noticed in the thread at the Debate Table, some people were a little too blunt. She probally thought that homosexuals in general were evil, just by the way many people were putting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 Are we a bit bored? Notice how she is gone and yet her simple posts have caused an "uproar", if i may, among you all. Settle down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shelly_freak Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 Luthie I love your avatar! But anyways, back to what you were saying. I know better than to open my mouth when it comes to anything serious here, words get put in my mouth or I get the feeling I'm a terrible person. Think about that when you talk to others Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanCath Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Jul 29 2005, 12:42 AM']I mean if you're on a catholic debate table posting that catholic teaching on gay marriage is wrong, you should be prepared to defend yourself, give reasons, and/or refute our points. [right][snapback]663314[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Why??? That's like saying that only people who know how to argue are worthy of stating their opinion in the debate table. Again, Laudate Dominum, well said. There is nothing wrong with the posts prior to Deedee leaving... I am dissapointed in the posts following her departure. There is no concern for this person's soul at all. Just weak comments about her ignorance and cowardness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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