Didacus Posted July 29, 2005 Posted July 29, 2005 [quote name='StMichael' date='Jul 29 2005, 07:45 AM']So by saying that the world is not flat when asked who believes it is flat or round is insensitive? I'm sorry, but saying that we are neither conservative or liberal but obedient is nothing to apologize about. Backing it with scripture is nothing to apologize about. If someone refuses to see the truth should we have to understand and accept their confusion to a point where we are debating the undebatable? [right][snapback]663553[/snapback][/right] [/quote] It is not the content that I criticise, it is the presentation. ______________ Lets says I give you steak, beautiful, thick, grilled to perfection steak with the mushrooms and the potatoes and all the wonderful trimmings. Then, I remove the garbage can cover, with the garbage and its smell and rot and all that stuff. I take the steak, put it on the garbage cover (using the cover as a plate) and I serve it to you. Would you eat that steak? (example taken from Bill Cosby) ================ PS: love your avatar, where can the full size image be seen?
CanCath Posted July 29, 2005 Posted July 29, 2005 [quote name='Didacus' date='Jul 29 2005, 10:02 AM']It is not the content that I criticise, it is the presentation.[right][snapback]663568[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Exactly. THat's what I mean, no one is saying anything about what you said. it's HOW you say and WHY, and in what context.
StMichael Posted July 29, 2005 Posted July 29, 2005 [quote name='Didacus' date='Jul 29 2005, 08:02 AM']It is not the content that I criticise, it is the presentation. ______________ Lets says I give you steak, beautiful, thick, grilled to perfection steak with the mushrooms and the potatoes and all the wonderful trimmings. Then, I remove the garbage can cover, with the garbage and its smell and rot and all that stuff. I take the steak, put it on the garbage cover (using the cover as a plate) and I serve it to you. Would you eat that steak? (example taken from Bill Cosby) ================ PS: love your avatar, where can the full size image be seen? [right][snapback]663568[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I disagree. It is more like taking my penchant for candy and giving me more candy with steak drippings to flavoring it up. Since Vactican II, Jesus and his teachings have been treated as if he was a hippie. Jesus was kind yet curt. He would allow himself to be spat on, but not His Father's word. Spit on me. Don't even think of spitting on my Faith. If the truth cuts like a knife, so be it. The avatar. I wish I had a large image of it or knew of a place that had it.
Laudate_Dominum Posted July 29, 2005 Posted July 29, 2005 I think that zeal for Christ can be distorted when it involves anger and resentment. I know that many terrible things have happened and are happening in the Church because of false teachings and secular agendas. But the devil wants to take our zeal and twist it through anger and fear (the path to the dark side) so that our witness becomes less effective. There are situations that call for "aggressive negotiations" (negotiations with a lightsaber), but these times are quite rare. But even in these situations one should have control of one's passions and be centered in peace. One should be mindful of the problems in the world and ready to engage them, but not at the cost of one's inner peace. A Catholic lives for others, and always in defense of what is good and true; never for attack. "Once you start down the path of the dark side, it will forever dominate your destiny." - Yoda (hehe) P.S. I don't mean to be condescending, I'm just playing off of the star wars bit cause it's fun.
Didacus Posted July 29, 2005 Posted July 29, 2005 (edited) [quote name='StMichael' date='Jul 29 2005, 08:09 AM']I disagree. It is more like taking my penchant for candy and giving me more candy with steak drippings to flavoring it up. Since Vactican II, Jesus and his teachings have been treated as if he was a hippie. Jesus was kind yet curt. He would allow himself to be spat on, but not His Father's word. Spit on me. Don't even think of spitting on my Faith. If the truth cuts like a knife, so be it. The avatar. I wish I had a large image of it or knew of a place that had it. [right][snapback]663573[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I insinuated no such thing similar to what you mention above. I full-heartidly agree with everything you just said. The faith should always be defended - it is amongst the most important aspects of the church. But in preaching the faith, one should keep into context the person at the other end of the table. The truth cannot be spoon fed? But some can only accept a little spoon full at a time. Rome was not built in a single day. And another thing, I did not get the impression that DeeDee was 'spitting' on the faith. She was simply presenting her genuine beliefs. I do not believe she deseved such quick and harsh judegment. Is there not a section in the CCC that lessons the weight of a sin from "unintentional ignorance"? [quote]1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest. [/quote] =============== here is the dibggest image of your avatar I could find: [url="http://www.divineprovidence.org/Images/Micheal.jpg"]http://www.divineprovidence.org/Images/Micheal.jpg[/url] Edited July 29, 2005 by Didacus
CanCath Posted July 29, 2005 Posted July 29, 2005 Wow... I LOVE what Didacus and Laudate Dominum are saying. Haha, just thought I'd tell you I agree, instead of writting it again in my words. Props.
toledo_jesus Posted July 29, 2005 Posted July 29, 2005 hm. interesting. I'm quite sure that some people are able to come to a true understanding of what the Church teaches after some instruction from others. It happened to me, after all. It wasn't fun either. It was awkward, embarassing, painful and it made me angry more than once. I believe that it is entirely up to the person whether they listen or not. And believing that, I also believe that there are those who will never convert, revert, or whatever. I know that sounds kind of harsh, but nobody here is equipped to simply convert people by their own force of will or intellect (no matter how smart you are). So at some point those who are obstinate in their refusal or who face a challenge and decide they don't want to meet it need to be given a hearty handshake, a pat on the back, and a 'good luck and God bless.' It is unfortunate that today many, if not most, Catholics in the U.S. are 'damaged goods' in the sense that their catechesis has been poor or worse. How many people here hold their views because of what they learned in CCD? Few, I'd wager. No, most of us here came to our knowledge on our own. We sought the sources, we talked to the folks in the know. There was that desire to learn that was present in us. It is not present in everyone, and without it little will be accomplished. It is better for DeeDee to leave and save herself and us the aggravation of arguing over things she will never adhere to because of her upbringing.
God Conquers Posted July 29, 2005 Posted July 29, 2005 "If the missionary say, in fact, that he is exceptional in being a Christian, and that the rest of the races and religions can be collectivelyclassified as heathen, he is perfectly right. He may say it in quite the wrong spirit, in which case he is spiritually wrong." GK Chesterton. We all need to become spiritually right as well as intellectually right.
Didacus Posted July 29, 2005 Posted July 29, 2005 [quote name='CanCath' date='Jul 29 2005, 08:30 AM']Wow... I LOVE what Didacus and Laudate Dominum are saying. Haha, just thought I'd tell you I agree, instead of writting it again in my words. Props. [right][snapback]663587[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Didacus Corp. thanks you for your continued support and kind words. We will be PMing you shortly with your free T-shirt.
Didacus Posted July 29, 2005 Posted July 29, 2005 [quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Jul 29 2005, 09:21 AM'][snip] It is better for DeeDee to leave and save herself and us the aggravation of arguing over things she will never adhere to because of her upbringing. [right][snapback]663610[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I agreed with everything you said up to there. I believe it grotestly unfair to tag DeeDee in this fashion. You cannot with good judgement affix such a harsh criticism to her from the little you have seen of her. God sees into the hearts of men and women, no you. And yes, tis true, only if the audience genuinely listen to the word of God can they come to see the truth it contains.
Didacus Posted July 29, 2005 Posted July 29, 2005 [quote name='God Conquers' date='Jul 29 2005, 09:41 AM']"If the missionary say, in fact, that he is exceptional in being a Christian, and that the rest of the races and religions can be collectivelyclassified as heathen, he is perfectly right. He may say it in quite the wrong spirit, in which case he is spiritually wrong." GK Chesterton. We all need to become spiritually right as well as intellectually right. [right][snapback]663631[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Most excellent distinction my friend. Didacus Corp. will be PMing you your free T-shirt as well.
StMichael Posted July 29, 2005 Posted July 29, 2005 One has to be open to the message. DeeDee was obviously not. To respond that the last Christian was nailed to the cross because of being told Catholics are obedient and not liberal is spitting on the Church. Christians were so obedient that the Holocaust is forgotten (Christians being fed to the lions) or being slained by Muslims. Sometimes it feels like an episode of Meet the Press around here. Since Vatican II, there is no doubt many things were misinterperted and the effects are wide spread. The faith in the West is dying because of us not being obedient but amazingly passive and waiting for another to do what we should do. DeeDee and her ilk now know that Catholics are meant to be obedient. This may occur to her a time from now, but it is succinct. When we were confirmed, we were confirming that we were Soliders of Christ not therapists of Christ.
Didacus Posted July 29, 2005 Posted July 29, 2005 (edited) St.micheal, I agree with your views, and disagree with the views of DeeDee. But once again, it is not the content, nor the mission behind the church and its faithfuls that I argue, only the means of doing it. The comment of the last Christian being nailed to the cross - catchy little thing but very disrespectful, especially towards the saints. Vatican II, yes agreed much misunderstood document and its wake has left very unfortunate circumstances. Western church dying... it is certainly wounded but it will not die as long as we are here my friend. and yes, DeeDee did not seem to be ready to hear the truth about Catholicism, but I maintain that the approach taken towards her was uncharitable by many - though truthful and sound. ======== No T-shirt for you! (yet) Edited July 29, 2005 by Didacus
toledo_jesus Posted July 29, 2005 Posted July 29, 2005 [quote name='Didacus' date='Jul 29 2005, 10:46 AM']I agreed with everything you said up to there. I believe it grotestly unfair to tag DeeDee in this fashion. You cannot with good judgement affix such a harsh criticism to her from the little you have seen of her. God sees into the hearts of men and women, no you. And yes, tis true, only if the audience genuinely listen to the word of God can they come to see the truth it contains. [right][snapback]663642[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Well, from her posts, (which I went back and read...there weren't many) I gather she was not so bad off, except for this homosexual thing. But...she lived in San Franscisco and from what she said there was very little wiggle room for her. She sounded like she has lived with this belief for most of her life and so I simply think that there are some people with whom you need to cut your losses and run. It would take a very interesting experience to make her question her belief about homosexuality. I don't believe we're equipped to give it to her.
CanCath Posted July 29, 2005 Posted July 29, 2005 [quote name='God Conquers' date='Jul 29 2005, 11:41 AM']We all need to become spiritually right as well as intellectually right. [right][snapback]663631[/snapback][/right] [/quote] As usual, WELL SAID! [quote name='StMichael' date='Jul 29 2005, 11:58 AM']One has to be open to the message. DeeDee was obviously not.[right][snapback]663662[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Obvious to who? NEVER ASSUME. It is like the #1 rule in evangelization.
StMichael Posted July 29, 2005 Posted July 29, 2005 [quote name='CanCath' date='Jul 29 2005, 10:10 AM']Obvious to who? NEVER ASSUME. It is like the #1 rule in evangelization. [right][snapback]663685[/snapback][/right] [/quote] ----- DeeDee's post: "I seemed to be getting knocked down on phatmass (what does that mean anyway?) for a lot of my views. I grew up in a very liberal Catholic family, where everyone was accepted as being a child of God. I was taught to love my neighbor as Jesus loved us. Yet when I post my views in some of the forums, I get pounced on by holier than though types, quoting scripture and calling me ignorant. I was hoping to find a group of people outside of my circle of friends where I could discuss things about Catholicism and Christianity in general that I find hard to accept. I get the feeling that probably I should find another source. [b]I can't in good conscience change my views even though I know I'm a renegade or rebel.[/b] But then, I always have been. I don't take these things lightly, and my beliefs and views are arrived at by prayer and discernment. They just don't seem to fall in step with conservative Catholicism." ----- Her outright refusal (see bold) followed by her comment of the last Christian is not a mere assumption. Regardless, we all do the Church's work in different ways.
Didacus Posted July 29, 2005 Posted July 29, 2005 [quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Jul 29 2005, 10:10 AM'][snip] It would take a very interesting experience to make her question her belief about homosexuality. I don't believe we're equipped to give it to her. [right][snapback]663684[/snapback][/right] [/quote] We would not have given her an experience, but could have set her on the path, or at least point it out in such a fashion that she could have taken a good look. And whta kind of attitude is this "Cut my losses and run.". SFD!!!! If that attitude being played on me when I had reservations on my faith I would be half way to Hell by now (or already there). Fortunately, God never gives up - neither should we.
CanCath Posted July 29, 2005 Posted July 29, 2005 [quote name='StMichael' date='Jul 29 2005, 12:16 PM']Regardless, we all do the Church's work in different ways. [right][snapback]663695[/snapback][/right] [/quote] some ways are just more damaging than edifying...
CanCath Posted July 29, 2005 Posted July 29, 2005 [quote name='Didacus' date='Jul 29 2005, 12:20 PM']SFD!!!![right][snapback]663701[/snapback][/right] [/quote] What does that mean? Sorry...
Didacus Posted July 29, 2005 Posted July 29, 2005 [quote name='StMichael' date='Jul 29 2005, 10:16 AM']----- DeeDee's post: [snip] ----- Her outright refusal (see bold) followed by her comment of the last Christian is not a mere assumption. Regardless, we all do the Church's work in different ways. [right][snapback]663695[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Do you want your T-shirt now? I admit she had some pretty harsh words for us, and she had a bit of the "I can dish it but can't take it." attitude. But nonetheless, her being closed minded (as it seems) and saying harsh things (that where clearly incorrect in many respects) is not reason to close the dialogue and brush her off as a heretic.
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