kateri05 Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 on a serious note, i love ironmonk and all, don't get me wrong, he's super intelligent, makes great points and OBVIOUSLY loves the Church and Christ but.... he totally comes across as uncharitable. i'm not perfect or anything, so please don't get me wrong and most of the time, i can gloss right over it because i happen to agree! : and he's not the only one by any means, so ironmonk, if you read this, please don't take this the wrong way! to everyone in the pham: i'm not saying compromise the Truth or don't appear as firm on the Faith of the Church but really really REALLY pray and think before you type. and i'm no exception, i know. its just way to easy to be miscontrued as nasty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Wednesday Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 Oh, boy. This is going to get fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Wednesday Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 [quote name='CanCath' date='Jul 28 2005, 11:59 PM']Why??? That's like saying that only people who know how to argue are worthy of stating their opinion in the debate table. [right][snapback]663351[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Well, I think everyone is entitled to stating an opinion on the debate table regardless of their debating skills... but I think Al's point was that one should know what to expect when posting there -- chances are someone is going to disagree with you and, well, want to debate about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kateri05 Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 oh no, ashy, i hope that coment wasn't directed at me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Wednesday Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 Kateri... no... sweetheart! I'll rephrase this: This whole situation sounds vaguely familiar and I believe this has happened on phatmass before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FilmGuy127 Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 [quote name='Eremite' date='Jul 28 2005, 04:19 PM']^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ What StMichael said. St. Paul gave us a rule of thumb for dealing with Catholics who are not living up to the call of Christ and of his Church: [right][snapback]662878[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I agree that dee dee didnt really give the phorum a chance... But I completely understand exactly where she was coming from in her original post. Frankly and honestly, it can be exteremely difficult to try and disscuss certain topics on this site. The problem is that there is no grey area for you, so it seems, there is what the church says, and what the church doesnt say... and thats the final word. And to one who has been catholic all his life and attened catholic schools and youth groups for the better part of 12 years... and had never even heard of anybody having this attitude toward the doctrine of the church it can be quite disconcerting. And when you try and have a reasoned argument and half or more of the responses are "this is what the church's position is and this is the right position." and when you question why this is... half of the responses quote some random scripture or theological writing that leave you more confused than you were before... Its kinda difficult. Its like talking to a brick wall sometimes... you just dont feel like you are being heard. A lot of effort seems to be spent defending the faith rather than explaining it.... Its really agrivating. Personally i can only take it for so long then i dissapear from the site for 3 months... Honestly, the impression i get from many people here is that they just follow the church to the letter because they dont want to or cant think for themselves. I dont mean that as a dig on anybody here its just the impression i get sometimes. I think that faith and belief need to be questioned and updated but it seems like you just blindly accept whatever comes out of rome as truth automatically... and i understand the straight answer of why this is... but i dont really understand it... when i encounter it here it gives me an image of the church as a really weird cult. And yeah, you can come off being very hostile about it too... obviously ironmonk is maybe the posterchild for this. But this kind of totally blind unreasoned belief is, i must say, beyond me. So i know exactly what dee dee was talking about which is why that quote above was exactly the wrong thing to say... she was asking well hey whats up with this and you said, you are one of us or you are gone. not exactly a friendly response... i know its the truthful and accurate response as far as whatnot and whatever... but dee dee was looking for understanding. And that is not something that i have seen a lot of here. To clarify because that paragraph sounds kind of harsh... i know im talking about understanding and look at me right... I do have to say that i think that the people on this site are great, and i can not help but respect you for the fervor of the belief that you hold. Obviously i dont "get it" and so i react with a degree of cynicism. And i will admit to being very frustrated with the general pm crowd at times. But, i do have a great deal of respect for you all and your opinions. I have seen many great debates on these boards, and thats prolly the only reason i come back ever... but please dont take this post as an attack. Its not ment that way. I just wanted to say what i thought and perceived... maybe spread some insight and understanding about what its like for the "other side" so that perhaps the next time somebody comes out and says they are really frustrated with things around here you might know what its like. though i cant say why, i do like you guys. i think you are cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Wednesday Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 (edited) [quote]Honestly, the impression i get from many people here is that they just follow the church to the letter because they dont want to or cant think for themselves. I dont mean that as a dig on anybody here its just the impression i get sometimes. I think that faith and belief need to be questioned and updated but it seems like you just blindly accept whatever comes out of rome as truth automatically...[/quote] Actually I find that many of the people that are the most vigorous defenders and followers of the Church to the letter are generally the ones that have done a great deal of walking through the desert for 40 years, so to speak, and did a lot of asking of questions. [quote]Frankly and honestly, it can be exteremely difficult to try and disscuss certain topics on this site. The problem is that there is no grey area for you, so it seems, there is what the church says, and what the church doesnt say... and thats the final word. And to one who has been catholic all his life and attened catholic schools and youth groups for the better part of 12 years... and had never even heard of anybody having this attitude toward the doctrine of the church it can be quite disconcerting.[/quote] Not to generalize here, but I think often, converts (and reverts/prodigal sons and daughters) to the faith are very enthusiastic, sometimes overwhelming and often "cradle Catholics" (such as both you and I) are a bit thrown off by that. And likewise, a great deal of converts or reverts don't understand how some cradle Catholics can be so... well... easygoing and mellow. Often we come across as being too "ho hum/maybe" about the faith to converts. So I think Catholics (cradle, convert or what have you) can learn a lot from each other. It's times like this where the internet's own limitations in communication are quite glaring! Edited July 29, 2005 by Ash Wednesday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kateri05 Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 [quote name='Ash Wednesday' date='Jul 29 2005, 12:39 AM']Kateri... no... sweetheart! I'll rephrase this: This whole situation sounds vaguely familiar and I believe this has happened on phatmass before. [right][snapback]663410[/snapback][/right] [/quote] oh ok good :whew: lol and i believe you're right (i remember a thread or 2 similiar to this a few months or so ago....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StMichael Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 [quote name='kateri05' date='Jul 29 2005, 12:44 AM']on a serious note, i love ironmonk and all, don't get me wrong, he's super intelligent, makes great points and OBVIOUSLY loves the Church and Christ but.... he totally comes across as uncharitable. i'm not perfect or anything, so please don't get me wrong and most of the time, i can gloss right over it because i happen to agree! : and he's not the only one by any means, so ironmonk, if you read this, please don't take this the wrong way! to everyone in the pham: i'm not saying compromise the Truth or don't appear as firm on the Faith of the Church but really really REALLY pray and think before you type. and i'm no exception, i know. its just way to easy to be miscontrued as nasty [right][snapback]663365[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Part of the problem, since probably Vatican II, is the lack of bluntness. Charity does not mean spoon feeding the truth. Or debating it for that matter. If you can not accept what the Catholic religion says about the anything goes morality, then regardless of how it is stated you will think you can negotiate the teachings. Our faith is what it is. I see no one questioning those of Jewish faith nor of Muslim faith. Yet Catholics need to explain themselves at every turn. I know cradle Catholics who believe a women has a "right to choose." To fight propaganda with propaganda is not the way of the Cross. As you can see I chose St. Michael as my user name, he did not use any charity when dealing with Satan. Did he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didacus Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 Who was it that used to have a sig htat said "It is a sin to bore people with the bible."? I share the sentiment originated on this thread by Laudate_DominumLaudate_Dominum though I do not believe 'shame' would be the best word. When newbies like dee dee come around, we have to give them a bit of breathing space, and try to reach them at their level. We cannot expect everyone to know the scriptures and canon law as well as anyone here. The first thing that should be attempted, (in my opinion), when newbies like dee dee come around is a genuine attempt to understand their positions and trying to find common ground with them. This shows them respect and gives them a little something to stand upon. You cannot hope to enter into a productive discussion unless we have the other side's attention. __________________________________ Remeber, there are TWO kinds of idiots in the world: The idiot that cannot understand, and the idiot who cannot be understood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 [quote name='Didacus' date='Jul 29 2005, 07:38 AM']I share the sentiment originated on this thread by Laudate_DominumLaudate_Dominum though I do not believe 'shame' would be the best word. [right][snapback]663548[/snapback][/right] [/quote] For the record the sentiments of shame were more of less expressive of 'the heat of the moment'. My more general feelings are more in the category of concern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StMichael Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 [quote name='Didacus' date='Jul 29 2005, 07:38 AM']Who was it that used to have a sig htat said "It is a sin to bore people with the bible."? I share the sentiment originated on this thread by Laudate_DominumLaudate_Dominum though I do not believe 'shame' would be the best word. When newbies like dee dee come around, we have to give them a bit of breathing space, and try to reach them at their level. We cannot expect everyone to know the scriptures and canon law as well as anyone here. The first thing that should be attempted, (in my opinion), when newbies like dee dee come around is a genuine attempt to understand their positions and trying to find common ground with them. This shows them respect and gives them a little something to stand upon. You cannot hope to enter into a productive discussion unless we have the other side's attention. __________________________________ Remeber, there are TWO kinds of idiots in the world: The idiot that cannot understand, and the idiot who cannot be understood. [right][snapback]663548[/snapback][/right] [/quote] So by saying that the world is not flat when asked who believes it is flat or round is insensitive? I'm sorry, but saying that we are neither conservative or liberal but obedient is nothing to apologize about. Backing it with scripture is nothing to apologize about. If someone refuses to see the truth should we have to understand and accept their confusion to a point where we are debating the undebatable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanCath Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 [quote name='Ash Wednesday' date='Jul 29 2005, 03:28 AM']Well, I think everyone is entitled to stating an opinion on the debate table regardless of their debating skills... but I think Al's point was that one should know what to expect when posting there -- chances are someone is going to disagree with you and, well, want to debate about it. [right][snapback]663393[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Thanks for that Clarification Ash... That's not what I thought you meant. [quote name='Ash Wednesday' date='Jul 29 2005, 03:52 AM']It's times like this where the internet's own limitations in communication are quite glaring! [right][snapback]663434[/snapback][/right] [/quote] AMEN! [quote name='StMichael' date='Jul 29 2005, 09:14 AM']Part of the problem, since probably Vatican II, is the lack of bluntness. Charity does not mean spoon feeding the truth. Or debating it for that matter.[right][snapback]663544[/snapback][/right] [/quote] We cannot convince ANYONE of the Truth whether you spoon feed or debate or any other way. The only person who convinces anyone is the HOLY SPIRIT. [quote name='StMichael' date='Jul 29 2005, 09:14 AM']If you can not accept what the Catholic religion says about the anything goes morality, then regardless of how it is stated you will think you can negotiate the teachings.[right][snapback]663544[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Some people haven't accepted what the Catholic FAITH says because they don't understand why you should. NO ONE has guided her to books or tapes to help her understand. You simply sound like a bunch of people who like to show how much they know. It's not the way to go. Honestly, read [i][b]Search and Rescue[/b][/i] by Patrick Madrid, you'll learn a thing or to about bringing people to the Church. [quote name='StMichael' date='Jul 29 2005, 09:14 AM']As you can see I chose St. Michael as my user name, he did not use any charity when dealing with Satan. Did he? [right][snapback]663544[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I cannot believe you wrote that.... YOU ARE NOT DEALING WITH SATAN!!!!! You are dealing with a Human being, LOVED by God. A soul in much need of Truth. And while we are called to ruthless with Satan, we are called to have COMPASSION for the sins of others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didacus Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Jul 29 2005, 07:44 AM']For the record the sentiments of shame were more of less expressive of 'the heat of the moment'. My more general feelings are more in the category of concern. [right][snapback]663551[/snapback][/right] [/quote] 10-4 Understood and agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dspen2005 Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 There is no such thing as a liberal catholic or conservative catholic. there is only being Catholic..... I find these labels not only to be misleading and superfluous, but also offensive -- in that, it creates the image of a disunified Church. While there are divisions within the Church on lines of discplinary application, the the Church is still ONE. A Catholic MUST HOLD TO ALL DOGMAS AND DOCTRINES OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. to do otherwise is not Catholic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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