Is It Just Me?

[son_of_angels]

Ah, the Germans do have a tendency to pronounce Latin classically. Of course I heard one Catholic Latinist put it this way, "The Germans were convinced the church knew nothing at all about the pronunciation of its own tongue, so the Germans all got together, thought very hard, and decided that it was pronounced like German."

Actually, the "ce" and the other soft c's we know to have been pronounced that way since the Middle Ages or even earlier. My argument is always that, Latin being still a living language, one has to pronounce it as the natives do. Moreover in the two major, directly from Roman, languages (Romanian and Italian) the "ce" is pronounced as the English "ch"

Well, that was completely off topic.

I am, myself, not a big fan of modern liturgical music. But I LOVE modern settings of the old liturgical music in Latin. Of course, it's not because it's "modern" that I don't like it, rather because most of the lyrics are carp. I'm sorry, the next time I hear "Let us break bread together" I am going to scream. Just sing a Psalm if you can't do better than that. Something in Hebrew, something in pig-Latin, ANYTHING.
When you compare that to "Ave verum corpus" or "Adoro te devote" you realize how inadequate the song is compared to the other possible hymns.
It's not even modern, it's an old negro spiritual and has nothing to do with the Catholic Eucharist.

[Lil Red]

it's all in your head.

[raptor13]

[quote name='son_of_angels' date='Aug 23 2005, 06:14 PM']Ah, the Germans do have a tendency to pronounce Latin classically.  Of course I heard one Catholic Latinist put it this way, "The Germans were convinced the church knew nothing at all about the pronunciation of its own tongue, so the Germans all got together, thought very hard, and decided that it was pronounced like German."[/quote]

haha!

[quote]Actually, the "ce" and the other soft c's we know to have been pronounced that way since the Middle Ages or even earlier.  My argument is always that, Latin being still a living language, one has to pronounce it as the natives do.  Moreover in the two major, directly from Roman, languages (Romanian and Italian) the "ce" is pronounced as the English "ch"
[/quote]

yea by 'modern' i meant middle-ages and after .

[quote]I am, myself, not a big fan of modern liturgical music.  But I LOVE modern settings of the old liturgical music in Latin.  Of course, it's not because it's "modern" that I don't like it, rather because most of the lyrics are carp. I'm sorry, the next time I hear "Let us break bread together" I am going to scream.  Just sing a Psalm if you can't do better than that.  Something in Hebrew, something in pig-Latin, ANYTHING.
When you compare that to "Ave verum corpus" or "Adoro te devote" you realize how inadequate the song is compared to the other possible hymns.
It's not even modern, it's an old negro spiritual and has nothing to do with the Catholic Eucharist.
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hmmm.... maybe u should check out [url="http://www.canticanova.com/"]Cantica Nova[/url]. I havn't actually heard any of their stuff... but this is from their Music Submission Guidelines page:

[quote name='Cantica Nova']The following are the guidelines for submitting music to CanticaNOVA Publications. The more your music conforms to these guidelines, the more likely it is to prompt serious publishing consideration.
Music and Text

    * should be traditional, i.e. well-written music in styles ranging from Gregorian chant to that of composers like John Rutter.
    * Specifically excluded are the singer/songwriter pieces so common in American Catholic churches in the last 30 years as well as the sentimental devotional pieces that prospered in these churches in the 1940s and 50s. should have some point of reference to the musical and liturgical heritage of the Roman Rite of the Catholic Church.

Text

    * should be God-centered, avoiding styles in which the congregation or choir are singing to themselves and/or about themselves.
    * should be of high quality, avoiding trite and mundane phrasing and should not go to extreme or awkward lengths to avoid traditional English pronoun usage.

Music

    * must follow all the principles of standard music theory, unless compositional style demands otherwise.

Choral Music and Congregational Music

    * should respect the range of singers.
    * should be a cappella or include an organ accompaniment. Brass, string or woodwind accompaniments or obbligati are also welcome. Music with piano or guitar accompaniment will usually be returned.
[/quote]


hehe sounds like my kinda music.

[qfnol31]

Just a quick comment on "mispronunciation," the Holy Father himself uses the Classical style.

[Aloysius]

in Church functions?

he better not say "Awe maria"

[son_of_angels]

I've never heard him do so...and I heard his whole sermon in Latin. Of course, the darn translation made it difficult to hear, but I thought I heard plenty of v's in there.

Then again, he's German. Nobody's perfect. (sits contemplating the way Germans screw up everything classical)


Anyway, like I said, I really liked the Credo at WYD. It just sounded cool to hear such a fresh approach to a setting which really isn't visited even in Tridentine Circles much. Credo I is definitely the most historic and beautiful, but, owing to the popularity of Mass VIII (de Angelis) where the Gloria is so similar to Credo III, it seems also to be commonly overlooked. I did notice, however, that the Gloria was from the very lowest rank of feast that still has a Gloria, very easy to sing compared, say to Mass IX (cum Jubilo), but a bit bland. Glad to see it spiced up.

[L5]

I think simply the music just was unsingable

[Laudate_Dominum]

Latin sounds best pronounced with Italian rules of pronunciation. I feel slightly ill when I hear it pronounced any other way.

[Paladin D]

[quote name='inDEED' date='Aug 23 2005, 11:44 AM']Oh brother...here we go again...

I'm only going to post once in this thread...if you feel my comments are directed @ you, take them for what they're worth...

Electric guitars, drums, percussion instruments, trumpets, horns, heck - even a freakin' KAZOO can be used as tools to worship in Mass. Period.

hot stuff, Ryan, and those who are courageous enough to defend the choices of our Priests, Bishops, and even POPE in regards to the liturgy, I commend you...And, to those of you who ridicule the manner in which our passionate musicians devote their lives in serving the Church as music ministers @ our Masses...give it up...your "fight" is not worth fighting. Spend your time in prayer, evangelization, WHATEVER else that can aid to the glory of His kingdom - not condemning such choices on a freakin' message board...

I'm out of this ridiculous debate...Gotta tell you - threads like these are what made me step down as a mod...if this is the direction that the Phatmass boards continue to take, growth simply cannot occur...
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Agreed.

Also to, the electric guitar was invented in the United States. Therefore, wouldn't it be [b]our[/b] cultural instrument? Other cultures use their own form of instruments at times, why not us? I prefer the acoustic guitar at a Mass than an eletric guitar (which is the case in our parish, since it's tiny and we don't have an organ).

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Aug 24 2005, 12:49 AM']in Church functions?

he better not say "Awe maria"


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Mostly "Hoc" instead of "'oc."

I was a little confused the first time I heard it (Easter Vigil) and then I realized why.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='son_of_angels' date='Aug 24 2005, 12:50 AM']I've never heard him do so...and I heard his whole sermon in Latin.  Of course, the darn translation made it difficult to hear, but I thought I heard plenty of v's in there.

Then again, he's German.  Nobody's perfect. (sits contemplating the way Germans screw up everything classical)
Anyway, like I said, I really liked the Credo at WYD.  It just sounded cool to hear such a fresh approach to a setting which really isn't visited even in Tridentine Circles much.  Credo I is definitely the most historic and beautiful, but, owing to the popularity of Mass VIII (de Angelis) where the Gloria is so similar to Credo III, it seems also to be commonly overlooked.  I did notice, however, that the Gloria was from the very lowest rank of feast that still has a Gloria, very easy to sing compared, say to Mass IX (cum Jubilo), but a bit bland.  Glad to see it spiced up.
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'tisn't so much that he's German as he grew up speaking classical Latin first and then Ecclesiastical. You should read his autobiography, it's great and mentions some strange feelings he had.

[son_of_angels]

I suppose pronouncing the 'h' isn't enough to anathematize him (grits teeth). Anywho, getting back to the subject, was anybody else turned off by the amount of German used in the ordinary?
I felt so...excluded. The least they could have done would be to put it in Latin so I could know what was going on, or at least cycle through the languages a bit more. Even chanting the Gospel in Latin would have been easier to understand considering the language they used was French You never know, considering how much liberty ICEL put in translating the Mass into English, exactly where you are when you hear Mass in other vernacular languages. Thankfully, the Latin's the Latin the Latin, so one can always participate.

[Socrates]

[quote name='son_of_angels' date='Aug 25 2005, 07:10 PM']I suppose pronouncing the 'h' isn't enough to anathematize him (grits teeth).  Anywho, getting back to the subject, was anybody else turned off by the amount of German used in the ordinary?
I felt so...excluded.  The least they could have done would be to put it in Latin so I could know what was going on, or at least cycle through the languages a bit more. Even chanting the Gospel in Latin would have been easier to understand considering the language they used was French  You never know, considering how much liberty ICEL put in translating the Mass into English, exactly where you are when you hear Mass in other vernacular languages.  Thankfully, the Latin's the Latin the Latin, so one can always participate.
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What've you got against Germans??

Edited August 26, 2005 by Socrates

[son_of_angels]

Nothing at all.

[qfnol31]

How much was in Latin?

I bet Pope Benedict was inwardly crying at multi-lingual readings, as I normally do.