Is It Just Me?

[SarahB]

I think in a crowd of that magnitude, you're always going to see stuff like that. Add the size of the crowd to the fact that some of those people probably don't even want to be there, and you can see that there will be problems. I've never been to a WYD, so I can't really speak about that.....but from my experience at other large retreats and soforth, the more reverant the even is, the more reverant the people at the event will be.

I don't know......WYD is a good thing on some levels. And on others, it just totally makes me cringe.

[Colleen]

[quote name='Paladin D' date='Aug 21 2005, 06:11 PM']Not a big fan of this type of stuff either, but to play devil's advocate:

Weren't organs contemporary when they first came about too?
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Organs were first allowed because the way they work is so much like the human voice.

[quote name='son_of_angels' date='Aug 21 2005, 08:39 PM']The only criticism I have is that, coming from a fairly charismatic tradition, the modern songs were sung so rigidly that there really wouldn't have been a difference if they had sung a Mozart setting of the Mass. You don't sing Latin chant as if it were German folk, nor contemporary songs as though they were motets.  I think it was the German coming through.
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Mozart wrote some in German and is more well-known in Austria than just about anywhere else in Europe.

[quote name='ryanmeyersmusic' date='Aug 21 2005, 10:00 PM']if it were a big deal to the pope, i feel certain that he would have made changes beforehand.
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Pope Benedict respects the place of the bishops over their dioceses and so he probably let Cardinal Meisner have some sovereignty over the planning of the Mass.

[quote name='blueufo7' date='Aug 21 2005, 11:00 PM']I missed this WYD, but I was at the Toronto 2002 one... and I really liked the music- especially the theme song!! (And i'm def not a folksie music person) 

With 800,000+ people at WYD, they could have played whatever music (Gregorian to heavy metal) and I don't think a crowd that huge could have focused on what was going on.  I remember at Toronto seeing people eating or making out during some of the most solemn parts of the Mass... they were so out of it! 

But then again, I saw JPII's funeral on TV and for the largest crowd in human history, the group seemed somewhat focused... not too chatty.  So maybe a more solemn Mass could get WYD pilgrims to pay attention.  I wonder what it was like inside the crowd at the funeral Mass... were people as out of it at the funeral as they were for WYD 2002?
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[Borrowing Colleen's computer]

I was actually in the middle of St. Peter's piazza for that Mass. I didn't hear a word spoken throughout beyond those used for the Mass. I didn't see people all over each other or anything of that sort. It was by far one of the most reverent Masses I have seen in my life. I had some friends in the middle of St. Paul's outside the walls and they, too, saw the same things.

Hard as it is to believe, the TV probably didn't do justice to the way the pilgrims and people who attended the Holy Father's funeral. Even the applause was appropriate in the way it worked. It may have been long, but it wasn't out of hand. And it wasn't so much cheering as I saw at different places.

But as a part of that incredibly large crowd, I do believe that the way the Mass was sacrificed, along with the music and language, led to the tremendous reverence found.

~Zachary

[ryanmeyersmusic]

the papal funeral had a lot more to do with respect for a holy man's death than the nature of the mass being celebrated.

it could be possible that benedict respects the fact that many young people are drawn closer to jesus in the eucharist with (gasp!) electric guitars than they are with organs.

whether or not the entire thing was planned in advance, if he were as against contemporary instruments as many seem to think he is, as the leader of the Church he would have been obligated to set things straight for a great many of his flock. the truth is, he didn't, and his not chastising on the matter does speak a good bit about what he's OK with.

[Era Might]

[quote name='ryanmeyersmusic' date='Aug 22 2005, 03:48 PM']whether or not the entire thing was planned in advance, if he were as against contemporary instruments as many seem to think he is, as the leader of the Church he would have been obligated to set things straight for a great many of his flock.  the truth is, he didn't, and his not chastising on the matter does speak a good bit about what he's OK with.
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Not necessarily. In "The Spirit of the Liturgy", he speaks quite harshly against applause during the Liturgy, saying that it almost always represents a breakdown of true worship, to be replaced by human entertainment. However, he has presided over not a few Liturgies (including the Pope's funeral) where spontaneous applause erupted. He has to choose his battles. Because such things aren't evil in themselves, he lets them slide, for pastoral considerations. But that should not be confused with his legitimate thought.

Personally, I didn't mind the opening hymn that I heard from the Papal Mass. I just wish it wasn't used for Mass.

Edited August 22, 2005 by Era Might

[Aloysius]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Aug 21 2005, 10:15 PM']LOL

Its in reference to Camster's and my "liturgical guitar" debate!!
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hello?!???!???

it's not as if this gives any sort of papal approval. you want to be the one to tell the kids the old out-of-touch pope doesn't want them playing their guitar at the mass like they've probably been planning to do for years?

Benedict didn't like it, didn't even approve it. He tolerated it and kept on going with a dichotemous reverence that made the music look all the more inappropriate.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='ryanmeyersmusic' date='Aug 22 2005, 03:48 PM']whether or not the entire thing was planned in advance, if he were as against contemporary instruments as many seem to think he is, as the leader of the Church he would have been obligated to set things straight for a great many of his flock.  the truth is, he didn't, and his not chastising on the matter does speak a good bit about what he's OK with.
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I think we are underestimating how busy the guy is... though I'd like to agree with you (and somewhat wish he would've taken a stance)... it's not like he can just walk in and change everything a comittee has been planning for 3 years. Your papacy isn't going to go over well if the first thing to do is walk in and act like everything is going wrong.

And Pope Benedict HAS taken some action... the liturgical director (the guy who had been planning papal liturgies... I can't think of his name) is out... no more of him. Pope Benedict IS taking steps... but as with most things in the Church.. it takes more than a few months to make things turn around and get working the way we'd like them to.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Aug 21 2005, 10:20 PM']The Pope is one of the busiest people in the world and to be frank there are a lot of politics and things involved in such things. There are lots and lots of people involved in setting up world youth day and the Pope is in no position to micro-manage everything.
The Pope's views on the Liturgy are clear enough in his writings and statements. Obviously if he could have dictated how it would be he would have.
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And why praytell do some people here feel that he didn't dictate how he wanted the mass to be? Why is it the assumption that "poor" Pope Benedict XVI had to put up with these shenanigans and had no say in the matter?

Perhaps Mass went exactly as the way he wanted it to.

[Aloysius]

did you see the look on his face???

[Era Might]

Contrary to popular opinion, Papa Ratzi is a very pastoral man. He understands that WYD has traditionally featured this kind of approach. Being that he inherited the tradition, and the special circumstances of the first WYD without JPII, I'm sure he didn't want to come across as an old meanie. The main thing is that Jesus was present in the Holy Eucharist, and he preached Christ crucified throughout WYD.

Edited August 22, 2005 by Era Might

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Aug 22 2005, 03:56 PM']And why praytell do some people here feel that he didn't dictate how he wanted the mass to be?  Why is it the assumption that "poor" Pope Benedict XVI had to put up with these shenanigans and had no say in the matter? 

Perhaps Mass went exactly as the way he wanted it to.
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Pick and choose.. pick and choose...


It's not that he had no say... it's the fact that it was a little late in the game to be changing all the plays. A LOT of work goes into the planning of WYD, and not that much of it is done directly by the Holy Father. And it wouldn't be a smart move to begin one's papacy by pissing off as many people as possible because you don't like their liturgical plans...

[Aloysius]

exactly. it is very apparent from his writings what he thinks of liturgical music.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Aug 22 2005, 03:00 PM']Pick and choose.. pick and choose...
It's not that he had no say... it's the fact that it was a little late in the game to be changing all the plays. A LOT of work goes into the planning of WYD, and not that much of it is done directly by the Holy Father. And it wouldn't be a smart move to begin one's papacy by pissing off as many people as possible because you don't like their liturgical plans...
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And yet no one feels that it is presumptious to speak for the Holy Father here? Are you kidding me?

[Fides_et_Ratio]

who's speaking FOR the Holy Father here?

[Jaime]

Well you for one Fides. Al for another. And whomever else I've quoted in my responses.


Why is it unreasonable to make the logical assessment that the Holy Father approved of all plans for Mass?

[Fides_et_Ratio]

I don't think anyone has said "Pope Benedict said this regarding WYD"...

Unless Pope Benedict's views have RADICALLY changed since he wrote "Feast of Faith", "Spirit of the Liturgy", "God is Near Us", etc. than I think postulations that the Holy Father disapproved of (but allowed, perhaps) the "not-so-good" music are perfectly feasible.

Everything I've read of Pope Benedict's would make it seemingly logically impossible to conclude that he approved of all the plans for WYD...

Unless you have some magical insight that I don't?

[Jaime]

I have only the facts.

We have a pope who has written about the liturgy extensively.
He was the head of the CDF for 20 something years (and still is btw)

There were guitars at his mass.

Yet some around here seem to want to rise to his defense though there may be no need.

Why is it that people are assuming that mass did not go as the Holy Father wanted it to?

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Erm.. maybe because he probably wasn't that involved with the planning? (edit:... it wasn't "his" Mass.. he didn't plan it... he just showed up for it)

And it's not that the Mass didn't go how he wanted it to... more that there were probably parts of it he would've done differently.
Secondly, his ousting of the papal Mass planner (I can't remember his name... gah! I need to look it up), speaks a little bit for itself... because, as everyone knows, papal Masses aren't the picture perfect view of Liturgical celebrations.

[Jaime]

I have read reports that "Marini" would soon be on his way out. But I haven't seen any reports saying that he is officially gone. Does anyone have any links to an official announcement?

To say it wasn't his mass is simply wrong. He didn't just show up for it. He was personae christi. It is also the largest event to occur since his papacy began. To suggest that he had no knowledge of what was to transpire or that he had no say in what was going to happen is silly.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

I did not say that he had no knowledge, nor was it my intent to downplay his role in WYD...

What I did mean was that he did not plan the events of WYD. I'm sure he knew what was going on and what had been planned... but it wasn't "his" even to take charge over. Unless there was some glaring theological error, or grievous liturgical abuse being planned, I seriously doubt he's going to throw a tantrum over bad taste in liturgical music and get all the WYD planner's panties in a twist because they don't view the Liturgy as he does.

My involvement in this thread was mostly in response to those complaining that Pope Benedict did nothing to change anything, as though he has all the free time in the world to devote to minor liturgical discrepancies when he's only been holding the keys for a few months.

[Semperviva]

i was there and i thought the music for mass was a good balance of traditional latin ( the gloria, kyrie, credo, agnus dei etcetc) and appropriately worshipful and not over the top.
...and there is nothing wrong with a guitar at mass