Piccoli Fiori JMJ Posted August 23, 2005 Posted August 23, 2005 I liked the cultural music from different regions, that was fine with me... but the rest of it was hokey... I saw so much reverence at a 6am Mass at the Kolner Dom than at the Papal Mass on Sunday
azaelia Posted August 23, 2005 Author Posted August 23, 2005 To everyone saying that we were catering to other cultures with the use of different instruments.... Since when was electric guitar an acceptable liturgical instrument in [b]any country[/b]? Oh and the hand-motions were definitely not cultural, and the whole song was in English.
Fides_et_Ratio Posted August 23, 2005 Posted August 23, 2005 hot stuff, are you just playing devil's advocate, or do you really think the Holy Father wanted the entire Liturgy to unfold as played at WYD? I think it more impossible to buy the notion that he not only "approved" (which I don't think he did in any formal fashion) the liturgy, but wanted it that way when you consider his past liturgical stances. Or are you aware of some giant interior conversion he's had since his election? I'm not saying that I believe the Holy Father was completely and utterly dissatisfied with WYD, or that he hated the litugy-- he obviously still participated and that says something. Perhaps they weren't the greatest liturgical abuses in the world (the gravest are in the hands of the celebrant, anyway) and so he allowed it for numerous reasons. That's not speaking "for" the Pope (even though, aren't you doing the same by suggesting he liked it?) it was giving plausible reasons for his inaction in regards to the music, etc. during WYD because it was being claimed that he "should've done something" when in fact there were only so many options... hence, we pick and choose our battles. Maybe the WYD music sucked for the most part, maybe it didn't quite fit in with the liturgy nor the liturgical ideas previously expressed by Pope Benedict XVI, but just because he didn't throw a fit, hop on a plane to Rome, and cancel WYD does not mean that he "approved" or even liked the Liturgy.
Piccoli Fiori JMJ Posted August 23, 2005 Posted August 23, 2005 I say next year we host a WYD bonfire and burn the guitars Well, not next year, but next time...
Jaime Posted August 23, 2005 Posted August 23, 2005 [quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Aug 23 2005, 08:22 AM'][url="http://www.chiesa.espressonline.it/dettaglio.jsp?id=32905&eng=y"]http://www.chiesa.espressonline.it/dettagl...?id=32905&eng=y[/url] [right][snapback]695389[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I've read that article before Fides. It simply states that it is likely that Marini will be leaving. Again I haven't seen any article stating that there is a new director. Has anyone? [quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Aug 23 2005, 09:07 AM']hot stuff, are you just playing devil's advocate, or do you really think the Holy Father wanted the entire Liturgy to unfold as played at WYD? I think it more impossible to buy the notion that he not only "approved" (which I don't think he did in any formal fashion) the liturgy, but wanted it that way when you consider his past liturgical stances. Or are you aware of some giant interior conversion he's had since his election? [right][snapback]695424[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Perhaps its a bit devil's advocate. But it is more to prove a point. Everyone has hailed the new papacy as a victory for orthodoxy. Yet the guitars are still there and no one wants to acknowledge the possibility that they are there for a reason. Perhaps guitars are not the evil tools that should be burned. Perhaps guitars can be effectively used to celebrate the liturgy. As far as the interior conversion of the Pope, Prior to being the Prefect of the CDF, he did not have the reputation that he has today. In fact he had the reputation for being much more moderate. When he became the head of the CDF he took an orthodox approach to defending the faith.
Fides_et_Ratio Posted August 23, 2005 Posted August 23, 2005 I have not been hailing for the burning of guitars... My main issue is when we sing specifically Protestant songs at Mass, or sing songs that focus more on us and on our feelings rather than of Heavenly things. My issue is more with the subject matter of music, not necessarily the tune. And my only other point on the matter would be to remind us that he's only been the Pope for a few months. The sweeping liturgical crackdown so many would like to see is not going to be instantaneous, because it can't be. As to Marini, I have not heard for sure... but it seems that many have been discussing it. So perhaps that was a bad assumption to make on my part... but again, it is still early in the papacy of Pope Benedict XVI to be making too many assumptions or demands. I also found [url="http://news.webindia123.com/news/showdetails.asp?id=89706&cat=World"]this [/url]article which says pretty much the same thing in regards to Marini.
Jaime Posted August 23, 2005 Posted August 23, 2005 The guitar burning certainly wasn't in reference to you but to Future Nun. Neither are my comments directed simply at you Fides. I'm sorry if it came off that way. It wasn't intended to. But my point stands and some folks do not want to acknowledge it. Why is it impossible for some folks around here to believe that it is possible that the Holy Father does not have a problem with guitars at mass?
Semperviva Posted August 23, 2005 Posted August 23, 2005 [quote name='son_of_angels' date='Aug 22 2005, 09:49 PM']I don't care what people say, I think the setting of the Mass was absolutely fabulous. I don't think it is so important the STYLE of music as the content. I will say I absolutely objected to the song "Let us break bread together." It is simply not suited for a Catholic Eucharist. But, come on people, didgeridoo's accompanying Gregorian Chant and Latin, what could be cooler than that? A sitar accompanying a setting of Credo I, that was just awesome. Ah, if only the Latin was pronounced correctly (Classical Languages major shakes his head). Even choirs in Arkansas can get that right. I think the important think here is to be able to imagine traditional elements of liturgy presented in a fresh way, not so it is "acceptable to young people" but in order to give new power to the Word of God. Think about it, when was the last time YOU saw a good traditional Eucharistic service like the Vigil take place. I thought it was wonderful. I can only imagine what 800,000 people chanting a Tantum Ergo must have been like (or however many knew the chant). [right][snapback]695037[/snapback][/right] [/quote] i agree wholeheartedly at first i was like um what the heck when the guy from argentina started his juggling thing up there but then it amazed me because it showed how all things must be done for the glory of God and that this was his gift of self to God on the altar... giving back to God an offering of himself... anyways... the vigil was differnet but completely reverent- i am really saddenned that ppl have to defend the vigil... i mean for benediction we sang tantum ergo and actually had to respond with the traditional "omne delectamentum... " having all sweetness within it... why are ppl complaining ??? when has this happened at WYD ever??!!!!!!!! hellO! the pope is obviosly NOT going to turn all these kids off by sudden complete latin immersion : (which i woulden't mind all that much)... its a slow process and he's smarter than scaring them all into orthodoxy... its a slow process of love, change and true conversion
inDEED Posted August 23, 2005 Posted August 23, 2005 Oh brother...here we go again... I'm only going to post once in this thread...if you feel my comments are directed @ you, take them for what they're worth... Electric guitars, drums, percussion instruments, trumpets, horns, heck - even a freakin' KAZOO can be used as tools to worship in Mass. Period. hot stuff, Ryan, and those who are courageous enough to defend the choices of our Priests, Bishops, and even POPE in regards to the liturgy, I commend you...And, to those of you who ridicule the manner in which our passionate musicians devote their lives in serving the Church as music ministers @ our Masses...give it up...your "fight" is not worth fighting. Spend your time in prayer, evangelization, WHATEVER else that can aid to the glory of His kingdom - not condemning such choices on a freakin' message board... I'm out of this ridiculous debate...Gotta tell you - threads like these are what made me step down as a mod...if this is the direction that the Phatmass boards continue to take, growth simply cannot occur...
azaelia Posted August 23, 2005 Author Posted August 23, 2005 Ok, so I think electric guitars and hand motions are hokey and annoying. Crucify me.
Noel's angel Posted August 23, 2005 Posted August 23, 2005 I see nothing wrong with having guitars, but it is how they are used that I have a problem with. If they are played with the right intention, then thats fine with me. That's my opinion
Laudate_Dominum Posted August 23, 2005 Posted August 23, 2005 [quote name='hot stuff' date='Aug 23 2005, 10:03 AM']Why is it impossible for some folks around here to believe that it is possible that the Holy Father does not have a problem with guitars at mass? [right][snapback]695482[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Because such an idea is totally inconsistent with views he has expressed in his writings. And that would be incredibly tacky.. I believe B16 to be a man of taste. Not to imply that this issue is merely a matter of taste.
Noel's angel Posted August 23, 2005 Posted August 23, 2005 Popular and Rock Music On the one hand, there is pop music, which is certainly no longer supported by the people in the ancient sense (populus). It is aimed at the phenomenon of the masses, is industrially produced, and ultimately has to be described as a cult of the banal. “Rock”, on the other hand, is the expression of elemental passions, and at rock festivals it assumes a cultic character, a form of worship, in fact, in opposition to Christian worship. People are, so to speak, released from themselves by the experience of being part of a crowd and by the emotional shock of rhythm, noise, and special lighting effects. However, in the ecstasy of having all their defenses torn down, the participants sink, as it were, beneath the elemental force of the universe. The music of the Holy Spirit’s sober inebriation seems to have little chance when self has become a prison, the mind is a shackle, and breaking out from both appears as a true promise of redemption that can be tasted at least for a few moments. [The Spirit of the Liturgy, (SF, CA: Ignatius, 2000), p 148] From the man himself
Noel's angel Posted August 23, 2005 Posted August 23, 2005 Not every kind of music can have a place in Christian worship. It has its standards, and that standard is the Logos. If we want to know whom we are dealing with, the Holy Spirit or the unholy spirit, we have to remember that it is the Holy Spirit who moves us to say, “Jesus is Lord” (~Cor 12:3). The Holy Spirit leads us to the Logos, and he leads us to a music that serves the Logos as a sign of the sursum corda, the lifting up of the human heart. Does it integrate man by drawing him to what is above, or does it cause his disintegration into formless intoxication or mere sensuality? That is the criterion for a music in harmony with logos, a form of that logike latreia (reason-able, logos-worthy worship)… [The Spirit of the Liturgy, (SF, CA: Ignatius, 2000), p. 151]
Jaime Posted August 23, 2005 Posted August 23, 2005 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Aug 23 2005, 12:23 PM']Because such an idea is totally inconsistent with views he has expressed in his writings. And that would be incredibly tacky.. I believe B16 to be a man of taste. Not to imply that this issue is merely a matter of taste. [right][snapback]695679[/snapback][/right] [/quote] And yet there were guitars. There is an old axiom that says "Actions speak louder than words" I have no problem with folks who don't care for guitars at mass. I'm good friends with some of them. What I have a problem with is folks placing their own feelings into that of the Holy Father. I find that to be inappropriate
Laudate_Dominum Posted August 23, 2005 Posted August 23, 2005 [quote name='hot stuff' date='Aug 23 2005, 01:32 PM']And yet there were guitars. There is an old axiom that says "Actions speak louder than words" I have no problem with folks who don't care for guitars at mass. I'm good friends with some of them. What I have a problem with is folks placing their own feelings into that of the Holy Father. I find that to be inappropriate [right][snapback]695785[/snapback][/right] [/quote] How is assuming that the Pope meant what he said putting my own feelings into the Holy Father? By your way of thinking I would have to conclude that B16 is hypocrite or something. It's pretty easy for me to accept the fact that the Pope does not micro-manage the WYD Masses. I have seen priests celebrate charismatic Masses at Franciscan who are traditionalists and are disgusted by the way they have Mass. But when you are a guest in another parish or diocese (even if you are the Bishop of Rome), it is not always possible to control how things are going to be.
Noel's angel Posted August 23, 2005 Posted August 23, 2005 [i]I myself have experienced the replacing of the penitential rite by a dance performance, which, needless to say, received a round of applause. [The Spirit of the Liturgy, (SF, CA: Ignatius, 2000), p. 198][/i] and he doesn't approve of liturgical dancing either, but he has experienced it
Jaime Posted August 23, 2005 Posted August 23, 2005 If I'm not mistaken, while the pope has spoken extensively about the liturgy, he has not declared the guitar to be an inappropriate instrument. I could be wrong about that but I haven't seen anything that would suggest that.
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