Women...

[stargirl3:16]

I think that one of the reasons there is such confusion is the terminology.
For the longest time, the lector was the person who got up and did the readings. I did not know that there was a distinction between a lector and a reader, and I bet that I'm not the only one.

I do the readings at my church and at college. I've been told that I'm good at it, and I like doing it. However, if the Church were to only allow men to do it, I would be willing to accept it.

[toledo_jesus]

I like the Easterners and their approach.

Where is Apotheoun? He needs to come in and remind us how awesome the Byzantines are. :

[Aloysius]

[quote name='stargirl3:16' date='Sep 29 2005, 05:30 PM']I think that one of the reasons there is such confusion is the terminology.
For the longest time, the lector was the person who got up and did the readings. I did not know that there was a distinction between a lector and a reader, and I bet that I'm not the only one.

I do the readings at my church and at college. I've been told that I'm good at it, and I like doing it. However, if the Church were to only allow men to do it, I would be willing to accept it.
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if a real lector were to be available and present himself, you ought to defer to him. otherwise, there is nothing wrong with you being a reader. You needn't defer to a male reader or anything, but a lector automatically overrules you. You have temporary deputation, a lector has a stable ministry.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Sep 29 2005, 06:48 PM']I like the Easterners and their approach.

Where is Apotheoun?  He needs to come in and remind us how awesome the Byzantines are.  :
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yeah, like the byzantines down the road from us who, last time I went, everyone serving at the altar besides the preist was a woman.

the byzantine church in america from my experience (or at least some of them) are about as disobedient as we were being prior to JPII saying female altar servers were allowed for us.

eh... american catholics... can't live with 'em, can't throw 'em in a volcano.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Sarah_JC' date='Sep 29 2005, 11:50 AM']I think the reason we're getting arguments is because of this:
(or at least the reason I'm getting mad)

People who are arguing for male only lectors etc... are generally being extremely demeaning to the value of 52% of the population.
Please stop using feminizing for a synonymn for weakening. The word you're looking for is effeminite.

If the Church was becoming more feminine it'd be a good thing. The Church is supposed to be feminine. It's the Bride of Christ.

Since the Church has become more effeminite( which is similar to the word emasculate) it has lost some of it's feminine qualities, which is becoming a problem.
Beauty - In my diocese there are new churches in the suburbs that are really... ugly. And mass parts not being sung is such a wasted oppourtunity.
Submissiveness- many of the faithful seem unwilling to allow God to care for them. Birth control is the only example coming to mind, but there must be more.
Mystery- I guess the non-Latin liturgys lack a certain bit of mystery. But the language of the people seems to allow people to understand better, and I don't want to go back to people having to pray the rosary in mass because they don't understand... but...

I guess 3 examples will illustrate my point. Maybe the Church is becoming too masculine for HER own good?
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This post is evidence you did not carefully read my entire posts on this thread, because you are completely misconstruing what I said there.
Did you even read beyond the first sentence about the "feminization of the Church"? It doesn't appear so. My post was not at all a general attack on women or femininity, like you make it out to be. It's quite annoying when people read a line or two of a post, get upset, then go off on an angry rant (which has little to do with what was actually stated).

Maybe "emasculation of the Church" would be a better term, but I didn't invent the term. "Feminization" here refers to female dominance, or lack of masculine presence (as in the situation where it is mostly women who are involved in religious activities or attend mass.) If those involved in a parish are 80% women (in a place where there are an even number of men and women), this indicates a problem. Catholics should maybe stop back and think, "Why aren't men attending mass, etc.?"
Conversely, if Church membership or activity was disproportionately male, and women were avoiding church, this would also be a problem. However, this is not the case as far as I am aware.

The emasculisation and effeminization of the priesthood, etc. is both a root cause and a product of this problem.

The problem is NOT that the Church has become "too masculine for its own good." If that were the case, men would be flocking to the pews like they were football stadium bleachers, and women would be driven away.
The problems you mention really have little to with the Church being "over-masculine." Ugliness, dissent, etc. are really not specifically male qualities.

Women have their place in the Church (albeit not at the altar), and true feminity (something the dissenting feminist nuns and such lack) is to be encouraged.
My beef is with feminist-type arguments that the Church needs to change the liturgy to be more "female-centered," and that we need to focus more on "the feminine aspects of Christ," etc, while arguing that women "feel alienated" by the Church. It seems the truth is that more men are being alienated by effeminacy and feminism in the Church.

Hope this clears up a few things!

[Socrates]

[quote name='morostheos' date='Sep 29 2005, 02:54 PM']Socrates said it has always been Church teaching that women are not allowed in the sanctuary, and therefore should never be readers...

I was asking him to back this up in some way.

I know women can't be lectors, but there is no mention anywhere that they cannot be readers.

In Christ,
Claire
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There is no "official" Church teaching that there can be no female "readers," (who normally are OUTSIDE the sanctuary), but the whole position of "reader" is a fairly recent one.

And we have a long tradition of women NOT reading or performing other such roles in the mass going back to the beginning. This tradition should be respected and not casually overturned or disregarded.

[hierochloe]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Sep 29 2005, 06:10 PM']Ugliness, dissent, etc. are really not specifically male qualities.
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Umm, everything sounded OK except for that, at least what it very candidly implies.

[Socrates]

[quote name='hierochloe' date='Sep 29 2005, 06:18 PM']Umm, everything sounded OK except for that, at least what it very candidly implies. 
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They are neither truly masculine nor feminine. People need to stop trying to take everything I post as some kind of attack.

Edited September 29, 2005 by Socrates

[Aloysius]

lol... but girls ARE icky and ugly and have cooties! :

[dspen2005]

that's right... i'm glad someone is sane enough to recognize the REAL issue....

[hierochloe]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Sep 29 2005, 06:21 PM']They are neither truly masculine nor feminine.  People need to stop trying to take everything I post as some kind of attack.
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Oh man, you're right. Gonna edit my post. I misunderstood the context. Apologies.

Um, nm. Can't edit it.

Edited September 30, 2005 by hierochloe

[Socrates]

[quote name='hierochloe' date='Sep 29 2005, 07:42 PM']Oh man, you're right. Gonna edit my post. I misunderstood the context.  Apologies.

Um, nm. Can't edit it. 
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Apology accepted.

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Sep 29 2005, 06:57 PM']yeah, like the byzantines down the road from us who, last time I went, everyone serving at the altar besides the preist was a woman.

the byzantine church in america from my experience (or at least some of them) are about as disobedient as we were being prior to JPII saying female altar servers were allowed for us. 

eh... american catholics... can't live with 'em, can't throw 'em in a volcano.
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shameful. I've only ever seen good Byzantines!

[dspen2005]

then, again, how many byzantines have u seen??

Edited September 30, 2005 by dspen2005

[Aloysius]

Well, don't generalize my experiences either.

[Anthony]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Sep 29 2005, 07:16 PM']There is no "official" Church teaching that there can be no female "readers," (who normally are OUTSIDE the sanctuary), but the whole position of "reader" is a fairly recent one. 

And we have a long tradition of women NOT reading or performing other such roles in the mass going back to the beginning.  This tradition should be respected and not casually overturned or disregarded.
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Actually, women reading during Mass is permissible. The primary difference is that in order for you to become a lector, you must be installed by the Bishop of the diocese. My parish does have lectors as well as readers. We have female readers, but the Church reserved that only men are to be installed as lectors and acolytes.

Edited October 2, 2005 by Anthony

[let_go_let_God]

IMHO

I come from a small parish, when I was in 4th grade I became an alter server and I was needed pretty much every week, because there was a shortage of servers in my parish. I stepped down from that position as a freshman in high school, but I still served when there was a shortage, or my parish asked me to for a special occasion. (i.e. funerals, holy days, and one mass with the bishop)

Shortly thereafter I became a reader because some of the parishoners asked me to because there was a shortage. At the same time I was asked to become and Extraordinary Minister because of a shortage, and because I was looking for a way to serve my parish.

(During that period I began to teach elementary Catechism to no higher than fourth graders, and continued that from my freshman year through my senior year. (I now am working with a group of freshman girls in the Cathedral parish.))

I knew that because I was not Confirmed at the time, the only way I could do so was with the bishop's approval, and it did not seem right at the time. ( I never became a Extraordinary Minister)

Also, I am heavily involved with the music ministry. Right now there is my mother, myself and an organist. I sing whenever I come home from college, but otherwise it is my mom and the organist.

I can understand why there is preference given to males over females, but in my parish, there is only women and girls stepping forward to take the role of alter server and reader.

I felt so blessed when I was younger to be able to serve, and now have found other ways to do so. I say if there is a shortage, especally in a small population, let women take the role of alter server, readers, cantors, and Extrodinary Ministers, otherwise put men in those positions.

Thank you for listening to my .02

God bless-
LGLG