Medjugorje

[CatholicAndFanatical]

lmao oh wow..lol

thats hilarious.

I can imagine what mood that broke

you are one crazy individual..

God love ya

[Dave]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Sep 28 2005, 03:14 PM']Dave

First of all, just because its on a website doesn't give it credence. They also claim to have the secret to the End of the World.  What exactly are this guys credentials aside from poor web design?

Second of all I don't trust anything published in FrontPage. 

If this is satanic, then satan has the ability to manipulate sacred and blessed objects.  I've never seen any evidence stating that.
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[/quote]

I never said it did, hot stuff. All I did was tell you why positive fruits aren't necessarily indicative of a true apparition, and I described it using the explanation of a guy who described it better than I could. And what are you talking about, saying they claim they have the secret to the end of the world?

As for Satan manipulating blessed objects, rosaries allegedly turning gold, by all indications seems to be a totally natural phenomenon.

In closing, methinks thou protesteth too much.

[Dave]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' date='Sep 29 2005, 11:46 PM']ya - Dave, and I could say that "hypothetically speaking,"  the Church investigated Medjugorje and pronounced it to be legit

definitions are fun to play with, aren't they?
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[/quote]

If the Church were to pronounce Medjugorje to be legit, I'd be the first to believe it. My problem was with those who are so quick to pronounce an alleged apparition as legit merely on account of the good fruits that come about as a result. Heck, false apparitions such as Bayside and Garabandal have brought about conversions as well, but that doesn't make the apparitions themselves true!

I've heard of people who believe in Medjugorje who claim that if the Vatican were to render a negative judgment on Medjugorje that they would NOT accept it. That's an essentially schismatic attitude right there. You need to realize that whatever the Church decides, we have to abide by it. If the Church decides positively, we're free to accept or reject it. But if the Church decides negatively, we MUST reject it.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Dave' date='Sep 30 2005, 02:42 PM']I never said it did, hot stuff.  All I did was tell you why positive fruits aren't necessarily indicative of a true apparition, and I described it using the explanation of a guy who described it better than I could.  And what are you talking about, saying they claim they have the secret to the end of the world?

As for Satan manipulating blessed objects, rosaries allegedly turning gold, by all indications seems to be a totally natural phenomenon. 

In closing, methinks thou protesteth too much.
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[/quote]

If you go through the website, you'll see "Secrets to the End of the World". The point that I was making is that just because some ding dong has a bad web design program doesn't make him an expert.

Is far as the rosaries, I've explained the majority of them but cannot explain the pure silver rosaries. Again I have personally held one (read my posts again)

I don't protest too much. But throw something out there from a legitimate source and I'll respect it.

[CatholicAndFanatical]

Hi dave!

and what website hot stuff has the secrets on it??

[Jaime]

Look at Dave's example at the top of the page. Follow the link

[dspen2005]

stay away from this supposed apparition until ruled and decided by the Church...

shouldn't that be the position of a Catholic website??? what if these things are actually the work of Satan (i am not saying that they are, before people get in a tizzy.....). but i think it is more prudent of us to not recommend sites to people that support these types of things, until something definitive comes down to us from the Holy See.

[Dave]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Sep 30 2005, 03:50 PM']If you go through the website, you'll see "Secrets to the End of the World".  The point that I was making is that just because some ding dong has a bad web design program doesn't make him an expert.  [/quote]

I figured you were talking about that. Just for the record, I never said I agree with everything on the site. The site also happens to have an "expose'" on the Legion of Christ. But I believe the allegations put forth on that were fabricated by other sources (and there are many).

I never said the guy is an expert. But I've read lots of stuff on Medjugorje -- both positive and negative. And the negative stuff I read wasn't just on that particular site. That site basically helped corroborate what I'd heard already.

And calling the webmaster a "ding-dong" and criticizing his web design abilities ... there's no reason for you to resort to ad hominems just because you can't defend the indefensible.

Is far as the rosaries, I've explained the majority of them but cannot explain the pure silver rosaries. Again I have personally held one (read my posts again)

[quote]For all we know, God could choose to work a miracle in spite of an apparition's falsity.  Perhaps it would be His way of letting us know that all we really need to do is focus on Him and His Mother.[/quote]

[quote]I don't protest too much.  But throw something out there from a legitimate source and I'll respect it.
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[/quote]

So just because you don't agree with everything the guy says and just because his web design skills aren't too your liking, you claim he's not a legitimate source. No offense, but that's rather dumb.

[Dave]

[quote name='CatholicAndFanatical' date='Sep 30 2005, 03:58 PM']Hi dave!
[/quote]

Hi Steve!

[Jaime]

Usually when someone looks to corroborate one's opinion, they look for a reputable source. This isn't one. It weakens your argument Dave when you quote from somewhere that even you don't believe. You used the source as an argument of "how it could be from Satan" and its wrong.


The web design stuff is really more of me being a smart a** than anything. But there is credence to the idea that if its worth publishing, its worth publishing properly. I do look at coding for the simple reason that anyone can now publish. There is so much flotsam on the internet that is promoted as "truth" it is necessary sometimes to distinguish it from truly researched material.


So yeah, when I see something written in FrontPage, it counts against it.

[quote]So just because you don't agree with everything the guy says and just because his web design skills aren't too your liking, you claim he's not a legitimate source. No offense, but that's rather dumb.[/quote]

No what's dumb is quoting a source without

A. Knowing anything about the source you're quoting
2. Believing in what the guy says anyway.

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='Dave' date='Sep 30 2005, 03:48 PM']I've heard of people who believe in Medjugorje who claim that if the Vatican were to render a negative judgment on Medjugorje that they would NOT accept it.  That's an essentially schismatic attitude right there.  You need to realize that whatever the Church decides, we have to abide by it.  If the Church decides positively, we're free to accept or reject it.  But if the Church decides negatively, we MUST reject it.
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[/quote]

oh, i agree

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='dspen2005' date='Sep 30 2005, 04:27 PM']stay away from this supposed apparition until ruled and decided by the Church...

shouldn't that be the position of a Catholic website??? what if these things are actually the work of Satan (i am not saying that they are, before people get in a tizzy.....). but i think it is more prudent of us to not recommend sites to people that support these types of things, until something definitive comes down to us from the Holy See.
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[/quote]

and i agree with your first point, for sure

and, dspen2005... welcome to the Catholic debate table
what is brought here and the positions stated here do not reflect the offial Phatmass point-of-view necessarily ... this is where we place our personal opinions on the table
this is also where we have an opportunity to see other views and maybe tweek our opinion, shift our world-view and grow as Catholic people


sometimes i like to smoke a cigar after Phatmass

[God Conquers]

This is an interesting argument....

I didn't know ANYONE had doubts about Medjugoria until last year, coming from another argument on this site.

Personally, I want to go there just to see what all the fuss is about.

I met a bishop who wouldn't sponser a trip to Medj (I like the abbrev,) but his only reason was collegiality.

I've read the skepticisms, and am myself skeptical of such daily and prolonged locutions....

However, I've met people profoundly changed by pilgrimaging there..

I'm not talking Catholics who go and decide to pray more when they come home... I'm talking several vocations to the religious life, numerous PROFOUND conversions and 5$ rosaries turning into solid gold.

Quite frankly, I'm baffled.

I also think way too many people are way too passionate either way about the place. Believe or don't believe, it's your decision until... and even after.... the Church says something. I don't think they'll say anything for many years so we don't have to worry about it.

[Jaime]

I like Matt!

[God Conquers]

I like metaphors.

[Dave]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Sep 30 2005, 04:56 PM']Usually when someone looks to corroborate one's opinion, they look for a reputable source.  This isn't one.  [/quote]

But who are you to make that judgment of what's a reputable source? Even a broken clock gives the right time twice in a day. The guy who did this site, btw, has had extensive experience in regard to apparitions. He's seen first-hand the good and bad that can come from apparitions, be they true or false. For example, he's been involved with those who believe in Medjugorje as well as the content of the apparitions themselves. He's done extensive research. Frankly, it seems to me that what you consider a reputable source is any source that happens to agree with you. It doesn't work that way.

[quote]It weakens your argument Dave when you quote from somewhere that even you don't believe.  You used the source as an argument of "how it could be from Satan" and its wrong.  [/quote]

That's bull ... I never said I didn't believe it. What I said was that there's material on the site that I don't fully agree with. However, it has nothing to do with the apparitions material on the site. You're apparently just trying to look for reasons to discount what he says just because you don't want to believe what he says. But also, he was referring to false apparitions in general -- he wasn't talking about any one apparition. And if he's wrong, prove it. And prove that what he says about apparitions and fruits is false, dealing with the specific arguments he makes.

[quote]The web design stuff is really more of me being a smart a** than anything. But there is credence to the idea that if its worth publishing, its worth publishing properly.  I do look at coding for the simple reason that anyone can now publish.  There is so much flotsam on the internet that is promoted as "truth" it is necessary sometimes to distinguish it from truly researched material. 
So yeah, when I see something written in FrontPage, it counts against it.[/quote]

Again, you're just looking for reasons, no matter how silly, not to believe what he wrote.

[quote]No what's dumb is quoting a source without

A. Knowing anything about the source you're quoting
2.  Believing in what the guy says anyway.
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[/quote]

I know plenty about the source I'm quoting. What I quoted had nothing to do with the stuff I didn't know about ... there was so much material on various topics that I couldn't possibly read everything on there. And once again you miss the point -- I'm not so gullible as to believe whatever someone says. I repeat -- the guy was talking about false apparitions in general and how perceived good fruits aren't enough to determine it's truth or falsity. True, I no longer believe Medjugorje is legit, but that's beside the point. My point, which you continue to ignore and which I'm saying for umpteenth time, is that no matter how many conversions occur because of an apparition, it doesn't automatically mean the apparition is true. There are other things that have to be considered as well, for example, the visionary's character, how obedient he/she is to the Church, if the messages they receive are in line with Church teachings, etc.

[Jaime]

Dave

I'm not trying to pick a fight here. If someone who offers no credentials, hands me a manifesto written in crayon about how aliens have taken over the US government, I'm pretty sure that I would dismiss it outright. I think you would as well. I am certainly not going to go out of my way to disprove his "theories".

If someone posts a website (FrontPage being the equivalent to a crayon) without giving any credentials on their background or what they've studied, I'm going to do the same. Its not a silly reason. This guy's site is offering his opinions. That's it and I don't need to disprove his opinion. There are plenty of websites out there that are far more reputable than the one you've listed that emphatically believe what you do. Ask PSPX.

Your post from the site was about how good apparitions could actually be the work of the devil. By posting that, how am I not to infer that you are saying that about Medjugorje? Others are saying its demonic as well. I think that is fear based.

Also I have not ever said that what is happening in Medjugorje is real. I have said that I believe it to be real. That's my opinion. Its based on what I've personally witnessed. It could certainly turn out that I am wrong. It wouldn't be the first time that's ever happened. Others have said that the Church will probably not rule on Medjugorje until the apparitions are over. If at that point, or any time before, the Church tells me that what I believe is wrong, then so be it.

People on this thread asked for first hand experiences. I've offered them.

[popestpiusx]

Refute the arguments and evidence presented in [url="http://www.mdaviesonmedj.com/fulltext.rtf"]this book[/url] and I may believe. Until then there is too much evidence against the legitimacy of these 'apparitions'. Too many scandals. Too much disobedience. Too much manipulation.

Edited October 1, 2005 by popestpiusx

[Catholic Fanatic]

[quote]if...the Church investigated Medjugorje and pronounced it to be non-legit, you'd be bound to accept that under pain of mortal sin. [/quote]

Amen.. tell it brother.

Think about taking a flame and putting it on your arm. Then think about taking that flame and putting it all over your body. Because if you're in mortal sin, you're soul would be bound up and cast into eternal fire..
There there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. You will not be released until you have paid the last penny.

Repent or be damned.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Catholic Fanatic' date='Oct 2 2005, 10:04 AM']Amen.. tell it brother.

Think about taking a flame and putting it on your arm. Then think about taking that flame and putting it all over your body. Because if you're in mortal sin, you're soul would be bound up and cast into eternal fire..
There there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. You will not be released until you have paid the last penny.

Repent or be damned.
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And yet the Church has not proclaimed it to be false yet.


Damnation rhetoric is a bit premature wouldn't you say?