i am a political liberal - and i prove it

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Oct 18 2005, 08:54 PM']MC Just, in what way do you mean liberal?  What does liberalism mean to you?
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i guess this is a good question - because i was reading his labeling Catholic liberalism as "heterodoxy" in my mind
a fellow Knight of Columbus member at my council, when he talks of "liberal Catholics" he is talking about heterodox Catholics as opposed to Orthodox Catholics (what he calls conservative Catholics)

at this time...
to me - conservative and liberal are very secular political terms
and - orthodox and heterodox are very religious Catholic terms

but when someone goes on about liberal Catholics - i figure "heterodox Catholis"

[MC Just]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Oct 18 2005, 07:54 PM']MC Just, in what way do you mean liberal?  What does liberalism mean to you?
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well just look up the very word liberal in the dictionary.Catholics in no way belong in such a group. "lacking moral restraint" "not bound by authoritarianism or orthodoxy" It dont matter, whether its political or religious, it all means the same.

What does it mean to me? It means gay priests and scandals, it means liturgical abuses with nothing being done about them, masses being said with everyone dressed as clowns, no kneelers, flower power paint splash stain glass windows(70's) Weird homlies that make absolutely no sense. It means supporting abortion, gay marriage, euthanasia, human cloning and a culture of death, Hitler and the holocaust, stalin, darwin, judith jarvis thompson, froyd, marx, john kerry, john F. kennedy, ted kennedy, oh and every bad thing in the world. :

[MC Just]

i know all that sounds harsh, but its true. To be liberal is to be so open minded that you basically open the door and welcome the devil. Say hi to the deteoration of morals, deterioration of harminony in the world and in society. Liberalism is a sin explains all of this in great detail. It says that liberalism is the ugly stepchild of protestantism. That private interpretation of scripture has a lot to do with it.

[MC Just]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' date='Oct 18 2005, 08:55 PM']i guess this is a good question - because i was reading his labeling Catholic liberalism as "heterodoxy" in my mind
a fellow Knight of Columbus member at my council, when he talks of "liberal Catholics" he is talking about heterodox Catholics as opposed to Orthodox Catholics (what he calls conservative Catholics)

at this time...
to me - conservative and liberal are very secular political terms
and - orthodox and heterodox are very religious Catholic terms

but when someone goes on about liberal Catholics - i figure "heterodox Catholis"
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Ecclesiastes 10:2 The wise man's understanding turns him to his right; the fool's understanding turns him to his left.

Right=Conservative
Left=Liberal

Right=Orthodox
Left=Heterodox

[Lounge Daddy]

Amen, Just!

[Lounge Daddy]

this all brought to mind a quote i had to go back and look up, because it rings so true today...

"Our strength lies in spiritual concepts.
It lies in public sensitiveness to evil. Our greatest danger is not invasion from foreign armies.
Our dangers are that we may commit to suicide from within by complaisance with evil, or by public tolerance of scandalous behavior."
-- President Herbert Hoover

[theculturewarrior]

I haven't read this thread closely, so if this has been said already, apologies. The liberalism in Liberalism is a Sin was not the liberalism of today. It is more akin to libertarianism than liberalism. (It was the religion of captains of industry in the 19th century. My religion before entering the Church).

[MC Just]

[quote name='theculturewarrior' date='Oct 18 2005, 09:27 PM']I haven't read this thread closely, so if this has been said already, apologies. The liberalism in Liberalism is a Sin was not the liberalism of today. It is more akin to libertarianism than liberalism. (It was the religion of captains of industry in the 19th century. My religion before entering the Church).
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it is the same...from what it explains, it does not look any different.

[MC Just]

[url="http://www.liberalismisasin.com/index.htm"]http://www.liberalismisasin.com/index.htm[/url]

[url="http://www.cfpeople.org/Books/Liberal/cfptoc.htm"]http://www.cfpeople.org/Books/Liberal/cfptoc.htm[/url]

Edited October 19, 2005 by MC Just

[theculturewarrior]

[quote name='MC Just' date='Oct 18 2005, 09:33 PM'][url="http://www.liberalismisasin.com/index.htm"]http://www.liberalismisasin.com/index.htm[/url]
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Most of it sounds like the religion of captains of industry (which in some ways more closely resembles some Republicans of today). I would like to see it in Spanish.

[theculturewarrior]

To a 19th century Liberal, a minimum wage would be unthinkable, communism would be heretical, and Unions were utterly anathema! It was the religion of the free market.

[MC Just]

Liberalism Defined

"Liberalism is the dogmatic affirmation of the absolute independence of the individual and of the social reason. Catholicity is the dogma of the absolute subjection of the individual and of the social order to the revealed law of God. One doctrine is the exact antithesis of the other. They are opposites in direct conflict." (Ch. 6).

"Protestantism is now a dead dog; Liberalism a living lion going about seeking whom be may devour. Its dreadful doctrine is permeating society to the core; it has become the modern political creed and threatens us with a second revolution, to turn the world over once again to paganism. " (Page 7

[theculturewarrior]

[quote name='MC Just' date='Oct 18 2005, 09:44 PM']Liberalism Defined

"Liberalism is the dogmatic affirmation of the absolute independence of the individual and of the social reason. Catholicity is the dogma of the absolute subjection of the individual and of the social order to the revealed law of God. One doctrine is the exact antithesis of the other. They are opposites in direct conflict." (Ch. 6).

"Protestantism is now a dead dog; Liberalism a living lion going about seeking whom be may devour. Its dreadful doctrine is permeating society to the core; it has become the modern political creed and threatens us with a second revolution, to turn the world over once again to paganism. " (Page 7
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At the time this document was written, Catholic Social Doctrine was being promulgated. Things like justice for workers stood in sharp contrast to the religion of the free market.

[theculturewarrior]

Find a copy in Spanish and then we'll really talk!

[MC Just]

[quote name='theculturewarrior' date='Oct 18 2005, 09:47 PM']At the time this document was written, Catholic Social Doctrine was being promulgated. Things like justice for workers stood in sharp contrast to the religion of the free market.
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it doesnt matter when it was written, in could have been written in the 11th century, and still would have been true.

[MC Just]

[quote name='theculturewarrior' date='Oct 18 2005, 09:48 PM']Find a copy in Spanish and then we'll really talk!
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[url="http://members.tripod.com/~hispanidad/liberal.htm"]http://members.tripod.com/~hispanidad/liberal.htm[/url]

[Jaime]

Fascinating

So if there is no difference between political and religious liberalism, are you saying that if I'm politically liberal then I must also be heterodox?

[theculturewarrior]

Just look at it this way. Think about what liberalism is today. Imagine that in an era when it was considered pornographic for a woman to show her ankle. We're talking apples and oranges here.

[photosynthesis]

MC Just, I don't think things are as black+white as you make them out to be. While I respect the point you're trying to make, [i]Liberalism is a Sin[/i] is not the Catholic Church. If ALL political liberalism were sinful, wouldn't the more recent hierarchy be affirming that in their own statements? While I think there should be less government and less taxes, it is possible to be a good Catholic and an economic/political liberal, as long as they keep in line with the Church's moral and social teachings.

[MC Just]

Well I'll just stay far away from it. i dont even like the word.lol If you are faitfhul to the church, the 2000 year old Catholic church(not just vatican II) then you are fine in my eyes. lol

Edited October 19, 2005 by MC Just