i am a political liberal - and i prove it

[theculturewarrior]

[url="http://members.tripod.com/~hispanidad/liber-02.htm"]http://members.tripod.com/~hispanidad/liber-02.htm[/url]

Haven't had a chance to muck my way through it yet, but just looking at the paragraph structure, it looks different than the translation, and skinning through it, it sounds like it more concerned with individualism (religion of the free market) than the modern liberals let's-start-a-government-program-to-fix-everything-that's-wrong-with-the-world.

[MC Just]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Oct 18 2005, 09:52 PM']MC Just, I don't think things are as black+white as you make them out to be.  While I respect the point you're trying to make, [i]Liberalism is a Sin[/i] is not the Catholic Church.  If ALL political liberalism were sinful, wouldn't the more recent hierarchy be affirming that in their own statements?  While I think there should be less government and less taxes, it is possible to be a good Catholic and an economic/political liberal, as long as they keep in line with the Church's moral and social teachings.
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ah, in other words i should be open minded. no thanks. Ive seen where that leads.

[MC Just]

the book speaks of liberalism as a root to many of the worlds problems. It also says every form of liberalism has been condemned by the church.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='MC Just' date='Oct 18 2005, 10:56 PM']Well I'll just stay far away from it. i dont even like the word.lol If you are faitfhul to the church, the 2000 year old Catholic church(not just vatican II) then you are fine in my eyes. lol
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That's good. :

[quote name='MC Just' date='Oct 18 2005, 10:58 PM']ah, in other words i should be open minded. no thanks. Ive seen where that leads.
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That's not what I was saying at all. I'm saying that what is defined in the 1800's as liberalism is not the same as what constitutes liberalism today.

To be humble, you must be somewhat open-minded. Humility is putting yourself below others and understanding that sometimes you are wrong. To not even consider another person's opinion because you are too "set in your ways" is pride, plain and simple.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='MC Just' date='Oct 18 2005, 11:01 PM']the book speaks of liberalism as a root to many of the worlds problems. It also says every form of liberalism has been condemned by the church.
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I think you're giving this book more authority than it actually has.

[Paladin D]

I'm curious, if someone holds onto views that are considered to be "liberal" (ie, pro-environment, anti-gun), would that mean they're a heterodox Catholic? I'm not anti-gun, but I'm for the environment.

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='Paladin D' date='Oct 18 2005, 11:13 PM']I'm curious, if someone holds onto views that are considered to be "liberal" (ie, pro-environment, anti-gun), would that mean they're a heterodox Catholic?  I'm not anti-gun, but I'm for the environment.
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the environment issue is a very recent - very silly stereotype
the idea that conservatives HATE the earth itself and liberals in thier quest for peace love mother earth

and further the issue becomes a donkey and elephant partisan political issue, this makes it even more ... stupid

look, outdoor sportsmen (yes - including the gunowners) have a better understanding of conservation and nature than anyone ... because they study nature and respect it, and unlike greenpeace ... they USE IT

further more - and my main point...
politically - this has become the seriotype only recently, during the 1980's
*Before then we had major conservative and Republican figures like Teddy Roosevelt, who established our unmatched system of wildlife refuges and national parks (today one of the faces on mt rushmore - and most of his detractors um "on the other side")). Barry Goldwater, the father of conservatism, was a lifelong conservationist - and a life long member of the "green elephants". Richard Nixon signed the Clean Air Act, the Endangered Species Act, the National Environmental Policy Act, and also established the Environmental Protection Agency.
yes, the EPA was established by a Republican

nothing is more conservative than conservation... and i would LOVE to see this 20 year old stereotype shattered
and i believe it WILL be very soon

[Paladin D]

I wasn't saying conservatives don't care about the environment (I'm one of them), but certain issues are usually associated with certain parties, more than others. For example:

Not all liberals are pro-abortion.
Not all liberals are anti-gun.
Not all liberals are for homosexual marriage.

Not all conservatives are anti-abortion.
Not all conservatives are pro-gun.
Not all conservatives are against homosexual marriage.


I'm tired, so forgive me if I sound... basic.

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='Light and Truth' date='Oct 18 2005, 01:59 AM']Should I leave here then?  I'm a politicial liberal and I am a generally active Protestant.
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NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! i love you - i love your posts - dont gooooooo...
we need you




besides... you need phatmass ... you needs it to be cool ... to be
know what i mean?

[Socrates]

I would argue that the "liberalism" of today is much worse than the "liberalism" of the 1800s.
However, what is being argued against in that book is basically the "rationalist" philosophy, which denies the truth and authority of the Catholic Faith. (Which remains very much a part of contemporary liberalism, and is thus still valid.)

Edited October 19, 2005 by Socrates

[Socrates]

[quote name='Paladin D' date='Oct 18 2005, 10:41 PM']I Not all conservatives are anti-abortion.
Not all conservatives are pro-gun.
Not all conservatives are against homosexual marriage.
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Any "conservative" who takes these positions is not truly conservative, but a conservative in name only.

And remember, conservative and Republican are not necessarily synonymous.

Edited October 19, 2005 by Socrates

[Socrates]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='Oct 18 2005, 06:07 AM']hmm...well, it makes sense (my silliness, that is) because i have an extremist personality. i'm constently drifting between legalism and toxic scrupulosity and an "i give up" attitude of despair.  not that i think that's good. just how i am, for now.

what did prohibition do to organized crime? and there's a major difference between the evil businesses i mentioned and abortion; one threatens the mortality of another human being, the other (if carefully monitered) does not.
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Something does not have to be murder to be intrinscially evil and destructive. NO good comes out of prostitution and illegal narcotics (other than enriching the crooks).

It seems that your position would state that nothing should be illegal except murder itself. (And really, why make an exception for murder? Wouldn't the right to bear arms be deterrent enough, as I've heard extreme libertarians argue?)

[philothea]

Is it just me, or is the definition of conservative, given here by self-professed conservatives, basically: "people who are completely, exactly correct on everything."