Cam42 Posted November 12, 2005 Author Posted November 12, 2005 [quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Nov 12 2005, 01:35 AM']While Cmom's defenitions of the words certainly leave no question as to what you are, some of us prefer more suitable defenitions of those terms if there really a point in asking the opinion of others about yourself. A Traditionalist, at least in your case, would be someone who holds onto not only orthodox teachings, but traditional practices. (Don John is an excellent example, I think, of a super Traditionalist; although, I'm not aquinted with his practices so much). Orthodox would simple mean, "correct belief" in which case this applies to you and would simply better be assumed. Modernist would be more of a statement about your preference for the new church, a more Vatican II type of guy. You know, Extraordinary ministers, horrid insturments during Mass, a person who loves the Novus Ordo and possibly wants to see the tabernacle not behind the altar (Note, all these are not directly because of VII, but have come in it's era). In as much as those defenitions are used, I would say that you lean on traditionalism more than modernism. I still voted the latter. Why? I can't say, not because it's some secret, I just felt it to be more correct. Not to say that I think badly of you, it's just what felt more correct, based on no real logic. God bless, Cam Jr. [right][snapback]786264[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Mikey, thanks for your honesty. However, I am not sure why you would have voted that way, since you have seen and heard (paltalk) me argue against all of the abuses that you list (execessive extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion, horrid instruments {guitars, pianos, etc.}, and Eucharistic chapels without perpetual adoration). I do have to say that I love the Missa Normativa. Because it is what the Church accepts as the normative Mass. I also love the indult, that is no secret either, but only as an indult. In other words, if there is a real need determined by a particular group of the faithful AND it is approved by the bishop. I know that you don't think badly of me, and again, I thank you for your honesty, but I disagree with the vote, especially, based upon your own definitons.
StatingTheObvious Posted November 12, 2005 Posted November 12, 2005 [quote name='popestpiusx' date='Nov 10 2005, 11:17 PM']That's because Cam takes himself a bit too seriously. It's not healthy. It makes one gray/bald early, develop heart problems, and eventually die of colon cancer. Not pretty. Not pretty at all. [right][snapback]785375[/snapback][/right] [/quote]i'm jealous that i didn't think of this obvious statement earlier. i am but a grasshopper.
StatingTheObvious Posted November 12, 2005 Posted November 12, 2005 (edited) [quote name='Cam42' date='Nov 10 2005, 11:31 PM']Not so much. I do take this pretty seriously. And I do take myself pretty seriously. I spent way too much money and too much time not to. [right][snapback]785386[/snapback][/right] [/quote]my uncle always used to tell me, 'bubba, you can spend all the time you want trainin' your dog, but it cain't ever buy me beer at the dew-drop'. Edited November 12, 2005 by StatingTheObvious
MichaelFilo Posted November 12, 2005 Posted November 12, 2005 Upon some further reflection I think I may recast my vote to simply orthodox, and not Traditional. Because you clearly live in the spirit of Vatican II, something far removed from the spirit of Catholicism as it was before; authoratative, "High Church-ish", more rigid hierarchal distinctions, etc. I enumareted the earlier list because I know that indeed I was there when all those issues came up, and put them out there to show no ill will. However, I lean away from "traditional" in describing you because you aren't traditional per se. You do love the Novus Ordo, something I have come to understand from attending the indult Mass to be nothing more than the protestantization of the Mass and is built in an age of democracy and egaltarian values. You accept, albiet in limited numbers, the extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion, something almost thought to be teetering on sacralige and liturgical abuse in more ancient times. I cannot therefore include you to be traditionalist, I wouldn't see it fitting. Orthodox would be more fitting upon rethinking my position. God bless, Mikey
qfnol31 Posted November 12, 2005 Posted November 12, 2005 [quote name='Cam42' date='Nov 12 2005, 08:05 AM']I couldn't tell you their names, only two (now) have stated their names. One said it was a joke, so I dismissed it. And I will respond to Mikey, momentarily. This is in regard to this thread. [right][snapback]786320[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Ahh, I haven't voted so I didn't realize that was a response to the poll above.
cmotherofpirl Posted November 13, 2005 Posted November 13, 2005 [quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Nov 12 2005, 11:39 AM']the Novus Ordo, something I have come to understand from attending the indult Mass to be nothing more than the protestantization of the Mass and is built in an age of democracy and egaltarian values.[right][snapback]786360[/snapback][/right] [/quote] This is a fallacy so kindly stop repeating it.
qfnol31 Posted November 13, 2005 Posted November 13, 2005 [quote name='Mikey']the Novus Ordo, something I have come to understand from attending the indult Mass to be nothing more than the protestantization of the Mass and is built in an age of democracy and egaltarian values.[/quote] Two questions, 1) Have you been to a properly celebrated Novus Ordo? 2) Have you been to a weekday Ambrosian Rite Mass?
Cam42 Posted November 13, 2005 Author Posted November 13, 2005 [quote name='qfnol31' date='Nov 12 2005, 08:49 PM'][quote name='Mikey']the Novus Ordo, something I have come to understand from attending the indult Mass to be nothing more than the protestantization of the Mass and is built in an age of democracy and egaltarian values.[/quote] Two questions, 1) Have you been to a properly celebrated Novus Ordo? 2) Have you been to a weekday Ambrosian Rite Mass? [right][snapback]786753[/snapback][/right] [/quote] 1. Yes, at St. Agnes, which I daresay is one of the few places that celebrates it according to Sacrosanctum Concilium, without exception, as it was implemented as the Council Fathers released the adaptations, using the Missals as they were promulgated. 2. Yes, in Milan. Speaking for myself, of course, so I know of what I speak.
cmotherofpirl Posted November 13, 2005 Posted November 13, 2005 Cool. at some point on another thread can you descibe this rite?
Cam42 Posted November 13, 2005 Author Posted November 13, 2005 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Nov 12 2005, 08:59 PM']Cool. at some point on another thread can you descibe this rite? [right][snapback]786760[/snapback][/right] [/quote] [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01394a.htm"]Ambrosian Rite[/url]
Socrates Posted November 13, 2005 Posted November 13, 2005 [quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Nov 12 2005, 01:35 AM']While Cmom's defenitions of the words certainly leave no question as to what you are, some of us prefer more suitable defenitions of those terms if there really a point in asking the opinion of others about yourself. A Traditionalist, at least in your case, would be someone who holds onto not only orthodox teachings, but traditional practices. (Don John is an excellent example, I think, of a super Traditionalist; although, I'm not aquinted with his practices so much). Orthodox would simple mean, "correct belief" in which case this applies to you and would simply better be assumed. Modernist would be more of a statement about your preference for the new church, a more Vatican II type of guy. You know, Extraordinary ministers, horrid insturments during Mass, a person who loves the Novus Ordo and possibly wants to see the tabernacle not behind the altar (Note, all these are not directly because of VII, but have come in it's era). In as much as those defenitions are used, I would say that you lean on traditionalism more than modernism. I still voted the latter. Why? I can't say, not because it's some secret, I just felt it to be more correct. Not to say that I think badly of you, it's just what felt more correct, based on no real logic. God bless, Cam Jr. [right][snapback]786264[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Modernism is a heresy condemned by the Church which refers to specific things. (See the proscribed propositions quoted by Popestpiusx earlier in this thread). I must say, I have never seen Cam42 promote or defend any of these heretical ideas anywhere on these boards. As Catholics, we must go with the Church's definitions of Modernism, and not just throw around this word to mean "someone who doesn't agree with my extreme trad ideas" or "someone who accepts Vatican II as a valid council." Calling someone a "modernist" (or other type of heretic) is a serious charge and should not be thrown around without basis just based vaguely on "what feels to be correct" and "based on no real logic." That is pure nonsense. Mikey, you need to start using some real logic in your theological posts, or you shouldn't post at all! Once we start basing our theological ideas illogically on our own personal feelings, rather than on the teaching of the Church, we become no better than the modernists themselves. I've had my disagreements with Cam, but I must say whoever calls him a modernist is high on crack.
cmotherofpirl Posted November 13, 2005 Posted November 13, 2005 [quote name='Cam42' date='Nov 12 2005, 10:31 PM'][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01394a.htm"]Ambrosian Rite[/url] [right][snapback]786774[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Thank you What is your favorite part of this Mass? Has it been altered since Vatican II in any way? Is there a tape of an Ambosian rite Mass available [since I will prob not get to Milan?
Cam42 Posted November 13, 2005 Author Posted November 13, 2005 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Nov 12 2005, 09:48 PM']Thank you What is your favorite part of this Mass? Has it been altered since Vatican II in any way? Is there a tape of an Ambosian rite Mass available [since I will prob not get to Milan? [right][snapback]786788[/snapback][/right] [/quote] No, it hasn't been altered, at least the Masses that I have been to. I don't think that it has been at all. A couple of changes that I do like: Advent is two weeks longer. Lent starts on a Sunday, not Wednesday. But my favorite part: After the Consecration, during the "Unde et memores", the Celebrant opens his arms forming a cross signifying that the Holy Sacrifice has been accomplished by the priest "in persona Christi", while the Choir sings the "Benedictus." [url="http://www.unavoce.org/ambrosian_rite_milan.htm"]Here[/url] is a link with pics and explaination of parts of the Mass.
Aloysius Posted November 13, 2005 Posted November 13, 2005 Paul VI was from the Archdiocese of Milan, correct?
Cam42 Posted November 13, 2005 Author Posted November 13, 2005 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Nov 12 2005, 11:08 PM']Paul VI was from the Archdiocese of Milan, correct? [right][snapback]786847[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Yep, he was the Archbishop of Milan.
qfnol31 Posted November 13, 2005 Posted November 13, 2005 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Nov 12 2005, 11:08 PM']Paul VI was from the Archdiocese of Milan, correct? [right][snapback]786847[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I think there's very little coincidence between that fact.
Pio Nono Posted November 13, 2005 Posted November 13, 2005 JMJ 11/13 - Thirty-third Sunday Actually, all the Western Liturgies (Ambrosian, Mozarabic and Latin) were revised after Vatican II. The Ambrosians and Mozarabs finished their revisions in the mid-to-late 80s.
qfnol31 Posted November 13, 2005 Posted November 13, 2005 Now that would explain a lot...what all was revised in it?
Cam42 Posted November 13, 2005 Author Posted November 13, 2005 [quote name='Pio Nono' date='Nov 13 2005, 10:12 AM']JMJ 11/13 - Thirty-third Sunday Actually, all the Western Liturgies (Ambrosian, Mozarabic and Latin) were revised after Vatican II. The Ambrosians and Mozarabs finished their revisions in the mid-to-late 80s. [right][snapback]787142[/snapback][/right] [/quote] That is interesting, however, I have not seen a revised Ambrosian Liturgy. Not that there wouldn't be as much beauty, richness, or validity, although I have only seen the traditional form of the Liturgy used. I don't know of any priests who celebrate the revised Ambrosian Liturgy. Can you point to a link?
Pio Nono Posted November 14, 2005 Posted November 14, 2005 JMJ 11/14 - Thirty-third Monday I'm still looking for a source, but since I'm technically on silent retreat ( ) I don't have a lot of time to search. However, the Ambrosian and Mozarabic Rites are almost indiscernable from the Roman Rite anymore. I was told that the only differing things between the Ambrosian and Roman Rites are the Prefaces, the Sanctoral and the location of the sign of peace. I was never able to make it up to Milan to check it out, though - besides, Milan is like a big Starbucks. Go to Napoli. I'm still looking. :
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