leave parents and cleave to...

[cmotherofpirl]

All 3 of my kids work full time and go to school full time, and Uncle Sam is helping out a lot.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Nov 9 2005, 10:15 PM']I live in one of those neighborhoods. You don't need a high school diploma, all you need is your GED and determination to be better than where you started out.
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These kids aren't just quitting school, getting their GED and going to college. the low academic success rates are because of drugs. Baltimore (especially East Baltimore) has a HUGE problem with drugs.

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' date='Nov 9 2005, 10:26 PM']I think most U.S. citizens can go to college if they really have the determination. My parents couldn't help me with college, which was why I stayed at home for the first years.

As cmom pointed out, all you need is the diploma.

And well, if need be some loans from Uncle Sam.   But that's life. He's helped me out but I have to pay him back. 
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Not everyone is lucky enough to have access to opportunities associated with being a U.S. Citizen.

[cmotherofpirl]

Every place has a problem with drugs. I have abandoned houses on one side of me and drug dealers on the other.
If you want to succeed in life you get up every day and work at it.
Success is 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration. If you want something bad enough you go out and try to get it. It doesn't always happen, but you never get anywhere without effort. Excuses get you nowhere in life.

[Aloysius]

amen.

wow, I thought you were one of those pro-life democrats?

lol sorry, couldn't resist... I mean the stereotypical democrat doesn't usually talk like that... but I kid, I kid...

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Nov 9 2005, 10:29 PM']yeah that's true for the most part, but I think it really harms college to consider it something necessary for success in life.  It's deteriorated academia into a slave to the job market, rather than a true place of HIGHER learning.

what's a kabutz?
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Indeed, I worked for a university for many years and many public schools view themselves as being a business. All the way down to the clever advertising campaigns driven by "marketing research" and engineered by the public relations crew that works for the university. You could have a diploma in your hand and not have learned much of anything. Just a piece of paper to get a job. That's how sad of a state many schools are. I think what and how much someone wants to learn at college is pretty much up to them. I suppose there are still some very excellent schools out there -- most likely private ones.

What one defines as "success" varies, of course. But monetarily speaking, one pretty much needs a college diploma if they want a job well enough to have the family and the house, etc. Especially if your wife wanted to stay at home, unless you are born of a rich family, win the lottery, or get into a trade where a college diploma isn't required, the main purpose of the diploma is the ticket to jobhood now. Of course I'm not saying it's right -- I think it's unfortunate that often both parents are pressured into the workforce while they are raising kids instead of one being able to stay at home and be a full-time parent.

Anyway a Kibbutz is an Israeli/Jewish commune where people live in clusters, have a farm or factory and pretty much go by the Jewish law. I suppose it's a bit like the Amish. Oy vey!

[cmotherofpirl]

Cmom's cheeky daughter reporting for duty. I have a handle on PM ("Ender") but I can't be bothered to sign in. Just a brief note:


Photosynthesis: Drugs don't equal academic failure any more than being poor does. Being poor, intimately acquainted with a considerable number of drug users, and a dropout, I can tell you: I dropped out because I didn't like school, and didn't intend to go to college. (I'm hopefully headed for the Marine Corps.) Not because I was tempted to sell or use drugs.

I'd say a solid half of my friends are dropouts, too. I know more people on drugs (alcohol, cocaine, marijuana) who have graduated than who have not. People who make foolish choices don't make them because they are poor or on drugs: they make 'em cause they're foolish.

A college education isn't granted by a lottery of good fortune: the only guarantor of success is determination. Sound like a Hallmark enough for you?

Cmom's cheeky daughter, over and out.

[cmotherofpirl]

Cmom's cheeky daughter reporting for duty. I have a handle on PM ("Ender") but I can't be bothered to sign in. Just a brief note:


Photosynthesis: Drugs don't equal academic failure any more than being poor does. Being poor, intimately acquainted with a considerable number of drug users, and a dropout, I can tell you: I dropped out because I didn't like school, and didn't intend to go to college. (I'm hopefully headed for the Marine Corps.) Not because I was tempted to sell or use drugs.

I'd say a solid half of my friends are dropouts, too. I know more people on drugs (alcohol, cocaine, marijuana) who have graduated than who have not. People who make foolish choices don't make them because they are poor or on drugs: they make 'em cause they're foolish.

A college education isn't granted by a lottery of good fortune: the only guarantor of success is determination. Sound like a Hallmark enough for you?

Cmom's cheeky daughter, over and out.

[Aloysius]

woah, I'd really like to see what quote you're referring to then, cause I have plans to start something along those lines actually, I'm workin it all out.

basically, theres about 100 acres for $400,000... we'd get about 100 families that would each pay $400 deposit and $100 a month for four years in order for each family to own 1/2 acre of land for a house, and all the rest of the land would go into building cozy roads made for walking (little parking lot for cars on the outside of the little village) and common places for the little community there. the idea's in developement stages right now, but it sounds like that quote would be pertinent to the idea.

but yeah, it really is sad that college is so necessary. and if how much you learn at college depends on how motivated you are, it would seem as if you could save a LOT of money and just learn by motivation on your own. sigh... it's all about the stupid diploma

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Nov 9 2005, 09:19 PM']hmm... if I hadn't picked this college an hour away from home... hmm...
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You're complaining about one hour? Al, my 'L' ride to high school and college was roughly [i]one hour each way every day[/i]!!!!!

[Norseman82]

Another suggestion is to get some courses in at a local community college, especially if they are transferable to the college/niversity you really want to attend.

[Ash Wednesday]

Yes, excellent point Norseman. In some cases students start out their first couple of years doing "basic and breadth" that could be learned at the community college level. I've heard they are much more reasonably priced.

[ardillacid]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Nov 9 2005, 08:09 PM']For any new Phatmassers:

Aloysius is our resident backwoods survivalist. He goes about in a hair shirt eating locusts.

Don't be frightened.

  :
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He also is controlled by me

[Socrates]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Nov 9 2005, 10:10 PM']Ash Wednesday, I understand the problems at how it's not feasible, but I do think in an ideal Christianized society there wouldn't be a real leaving-of-home thing until marriage (or entering seminary or monastery or convent)
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Al, I think everyone needs to get out of the house and live on his own for a while! It'll make a man of you!

I myself lived at home during college since my dad was a professor, and we lived across the street, but I don't think that was an ideal situation. (Nor did my parents, who decided my younger sister would live in the dorm). I wish I had moved out much sooner than I did. I did leave for OCS shortly after college, though.
Living on one's own builds independence, self-sufficiency, and responsiblity. One learns not to rely on mommy and daddy for everything.
While maybe not everyone need go to college, I think after around age 18 or 19 or so everyone should have some experience away from home.
This does not mean to cut all ties with family, however. But I still think it best if one at leasdt spends some time away to learn independence and self-reliance.

I'm not married, but I would not want to be still living with my parents. (This is nothing against my parents, but merely that a grown man should have some independence).

[Aloysius]

nah, I think it in an ideal society you live with your parents until you go off to get married, that's the reason to leave father and mother. that'll teach you independence too, there's no need to go off and then have no one living with you. going off to live with your wife is the idealest of situations, I think.

[ardillacid]

what if you cannot get along with them?

[philothea]

[quote name='Norseman82' date='Nov 9 2005, 11:16 PM']You're complaining about one hour?  Al, my 'L' ride to high school and college was roughly [i]one hour each way every day[/i]!!!!!
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Uphill both ways, I bet....

[Aloysius]

lol. it's only one hour when I go like 90 miles an hour. gas is expensive, though...

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Nov 9 2005, 10:56 PM']Cmom's cheeky daughter reporting for duty. I have a handle on PM ("Ender") but I can't be bothered to sign in. Just a brief note:
Photosynthesis: Drugs don't equal academic failure any more than being poor does. Being poor, intimately acquainted with a considerable number of drug users, and a dropout, I can tell you: I dropped out because I didn't like school,  and didn't intend to go to college.  (I'm hopefully headed for the Marine Corps.) Not because I was tempted to sell or use drugs.

I'd say a solid half of my friends are dropouts, too. I know more people on drugs (alcohol, cocaine, marijuana) who have graduated than who have not. People who make foolish choices don't make them because they are poor or on drugs: they make 'em cause they're foolish.

A college education isn't granted by a lottery of good fortune: the only guarantor of success is determination. Sound like a Hallmark enough for you?

Cmom's cheeky daughter, over and out.
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the kids I worked with in Baltimore weren't just "hanging out with the wrong crowd." Many of them became drug addicts not because their friends were doing drugs, but because their PARENTS were addicts. It was more like a generational thing.

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Nov 10 2005, 12:15 AM']nah, I think it in an ideal society you live with your parents until you go off to get married, that's the reason to leave father and mother.  that'll teach you independence too, there's no need to go off and then have no one living with you.  going off to live with your wife is the idealest of situations, I think.
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usually women tend to look down on adult men who still live with their parents.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Nov 9 2005, 08:04 PM']For this reason shall a man leave father and mother and cleave to his... college it seems.   That has become the accepted concept, that we're supposed to leave our parents when it's time to go to college... to become individuals seperate from our parents and out in the world on our own.  But that's not the way the Bible has it.

The Bible has it that a man should leave his family home when he's ready to cleave to his wife.  Of course, college stresses relationships often and they cannot financially be fruitful and oftentimes it's a struggle uphill to succeed, so we're supposed to leave our parents to go be on our own and find ourselves... it just seems so contrary to the natural order to me.

I know that's the way it is, but is that the way it should be?  In case no one noticed, I like to be a crazy idealist and attempt to bring about the best even if it's not the way things are commonly suggested to be done.
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Dude.. it's so good to know you exist. I absolutely agree.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Nov 10 2005, 12:01 AM']Living on one's own builds independence, self-sufficiency, and responsiblity.  One learns not to rely on mommy and daddy for everything.
While maybe not everyone need go to college, I think after around age 18 or 19 or so everyone should have some experience away from home.
This does not mean to cut all ties with family, however.  But I still think it best if one at leasdt spends some time away to learn independence and self-reliance.

I'm not married, but I would not want to be still living with my parents.  (This is nothing against my parents, but merely that a grown man should have some independence).
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After reading this and logging off, I remembered an example that shows that some of this is culture-dependent. For example, I learned from a Salvadoran family that in their society you live at home until you get married - in fact, I found out that I was considered a sinner because I was single and lived on my own!!