Plenary Indulgence - don't miss out

[Matty_boy]

Oh, God forbid anyone gets punished for any sin they've committed. Without it there would be no justice, and mercy would be more of an emotional response rather than a gift.

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ok...whats a temporal punishment?

also, in any of my purgatory research I have never found a strong reasoning for "serving punishment" but rather purgatory as a way of sanctification(*dante) working thru your vice. Hence the purification talk.

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[quote name='Matty_boy' date='Dec 1 2005, 05:50 PM']Oh, God forbid anyone gets punished for any sin they've committed.  Without it there would be no justice, and mercy would be more of an emotional response rather than a gift.
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what was the cross for friend? What is forgiveness? If we get punished for our sins than we are in hell, for the punishment is seperation. An all loving God, who brings atonement would not punish in this form to those whom are saved. None of the church fathers look to heaven in any other form than joyeous anticipation. Not as the time out corner

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Dec 1 2005, 04:09 PM']indulgances still strike a cord with me still. The idea that we literally will be punished for a sin does not seem accurate or right to me. The concepts of purgatory i have always been taught was the finishing of the sanctification process, that the sins themselves are paid for on the cross, but we still need edifying.

So, the idea of doing some act and than getting forgiveness bothers me. Now, if it was that the indulgances helped with the sanctification process than I would work with that. But right now it seems bizarre to me.
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You make a dichotomy between an indulgence and grace, pugatory and grace. Purgatory and indulgences are about the grace from the Cross. They are about cleansing us of our sin and tendancy toward sin. Purgatory is about sanctification (sanctification is a part of justification by the way).

I don't understand why you think we would not be punished for sin. Does the man who was an alcoholic for 20 years and repents get back his family or his marriage? Does the theif who repents get out of jail. These are the chastisements God set up and if his chastisement is not made complete in this life, though we are forgiven, we must be purified of all sin and unrighteousness before eternal glory. The sufferings from sin are God's love for us.

Heb 12
[4] In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
[5] And have you forgotten the exhortation which addresses you as sons? -- "My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor lose courage when you are punished by him.
[6] For the Lord disciplines him whom he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives."
[7] It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
[8] If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
[9] Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live?
[10] For they disciplined us for a short time at their pleasure, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness.
[11] For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
[12]
Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees,
[13] and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed.
[14] Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.
[15] See to it that no one fail to obtain the grace of God; that no "root of bitterness" spring up and cause trouble, and by it the many become defiled;
[16] that no one be immoral or irreligious like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal.
[17] For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.


Virtues and works/indulgences stengthen charity in us. Thus they purify in the positive sense rather than by punishment, bringing us closer to God.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Dec 1 2005, 04:52 PM']ok...whats a temporal punishment?

also, in any of my purgatory research I have never found a strong reasoning for "serving punishment" but rather purgatory as a way of sanctification(*dante) working thru your vice. Hence the purification talk.
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First of all my kid threw a baseball through a window. Was it enough for him to say "I'm sorry". Yes the guy forgave him, but due to justice the window had to be paid for as well. I took care of that and the kid worked it off. There is suffering for sin and that is God's love for us as I quoted in Heb 12 in my other post. If this suffering/punishment is not complete by the end of this life it must be completed in the next. 1 Cor 3:15 says that a man might be saved if all his work is burned up, in other words he has done more bad than good in the world, but as if through fire. This indicates that there is a penalty for his sins. For the evil that he has been done if it is not counteracted by the good. It is exactly about vice vs. virtue. It is about righting the wrongs that we have done in this world. Many we do not have power over and thus prayers and penance and indulgences bring about God's grace to those we love and have harmed.
Indulgences, works, etc. are all about God's grace. We can do no good except motivated by grace.

Blessings

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Dec 1 2005, 04:54 PM']what was the cross for friend? What is forgiveness? If we get punished for our sins than we are in hell, for the punishment is seperation. An all loving God, who brings atonement would not punish in this form to those whom are saved. None of the church fathers look to heaven in any other form than joyeous anticipation. Not as the time out corner
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Heb 12. God chastises those whom he loves. You are quite in error here. Christ's death on the cross took away eternal punishment for sin, but not temporal punishment. God still chastises the ones whom he loves. Heaven is joyous anticipation but we must be completely cleansed of sin and unrighteousness. David was punished for his sin with Bethsheba AFTER his repentance by the death of his son. There are many consequences suffered in the Old Testament AFTER repentence. Our sins cause suffering and that is a part of God's bringing us back in line. Punishment is not just separation.

[Matty_boy]

Yeah, sorry. That was a demonstration of me committing venial sin and being a big fat jerk (not to be confused with small scrawny jerks). I apologize for my harsh, impatient, uncharitable and unloving post in this thread. I had no excuse. Please forgive me.

[Matty_boy]

So long so long so long so long

Edited December 2, 2005 by Matty_boy

[Matty_boy]

so long and thanks for all the fish

Edited December 2, 2005 by Matty_boy

[thessalonian]

Let's keep this bumped till next thursday.

[thessalonian]

Don't miss this indulgence next thursday, Dec 8. Edited December 3, 2005 by thessalonian

[thessalonian]

[N/A Gone]

an element from our tradition that still lives on ... but on the fringes of our devotional life instead of at the heart of it (which it seemed to have done in some places and some times). In brief, they are a remnant of the Church's process for reconciling public sinners. As a process of opening the penitent to God's grace (something of a conversion bootcamp) bishops often called them to years of serious prayer, fasting, and exclusion from the sacraments (called "temporal punishment" ... as handed down as a remedy from the Church ... in distinction to God's judgment and/or punishment/remedy ). Over time, these penances became more and more inflated, so too keep sinners from being overwhelmed and stay estranged, special forms of charity and prayer were "privileged" as especially worthy. The authorities would "indulgence" them (sort of giving them a "double coupon" value). In short, they were ways to lead sinners in a path to wholeness and communion by pointing to especially worthy prayers and practices. The church's act on indulgences was cleaned up at Trent (it was the inappropriate "selling" of such indulgences and claiming that they had divine effect that ignited the Reformation) and again after Vatican II. They are still part of th Church's self-understanding, but with all the room for confusion, it seems they have been de-emphasized. I said, it is the Church's way of urging people to do things that are good for them anyway (insofar as it opens them to God) by pledging it's special value. What helps me accept the theology (if not get all excited about promoting it) is that in the Catholic way of thinking God doesn't just want to look the other way from our sinfulness ... but truly to change us. "Temporal punishment" is involved in that concept of sanctification ... but some peoples' fascination with the matter leaves me cold.

[littleflower+JMJ]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Dec 1 2005, 10:26 AM']Pope Benedict XVI announced a plenary indulgence on the feast of the Immaculate conceptoin next week.

You must:
1) Go to confession 8 days before or after.
2) Go to Mass and recieve the Eucharist.
3)  Pray an Our Father, Hail Mary and Glory for intentions of the Holy Father.
4)  Make a public devotion to Mary such as a rosary at a Church in front of an image or statue.
5) Detachment from sin.

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=62865"]http://www.ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=62865[/url]

If you do not fullfill the detachment from sin part it is still a partial indulgence which is a great grace.
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Bump! thanks for posting this Thess....

[littleflower+JMJ]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Dec 1 2005, 10:26 AM']Pope Benedict XVI announced a plenary indulgence on the feast of the Immaculate conceptoin next week.

You must:
1) Go to confession 8 days before or after.
2) Go to Mass and recieve the Eucharist.
3)  Pray an Our Father, Hail Mary and Glory for intentions of the Holy Father.
4)  Make a public devotion to Mary such as a rosary at a Church in front of an image or statue.
5) Detachment from sin.

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=62865"]http://www.ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=62865[/url]

If you do not fullfill the detachment from sin part it is still a partial indulgence which is a great grace.
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thanks for posting this!!

[N/A Gone]

hmm

[jmjtina]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Dec 1 2005, 04:12 PM']First of all my kid threw a baseball through a window.  Was it enough for him  to say "I'm sorry".  Yes the guy forgave him, but due to justice the window had to be paid for as well.  I took care of that and the kid worked it off.  There is suffering for sin and that is God's love for us as I quoted in Heb 12 in my other post.  If this suffering/punishment is not complete by the end of this life it must be completed in the next.  1 Cor 3:15 says that a man might be saved if all his work is burned up, in other words he has done more bad than good in the world, but as if through fire.  This indicates that there is a penalty for his sins.  For the evil that he has been done if it is not counteracted by the good.  It is exactly about vice vs. virtue.  It is about righting the wrongs that we have done in this world.  Many we do not have power over and thus prayers and penance and indulgences bring about God's grace to those we love and have harmed.
Indulgences, works, etc. are all about God's grace.  We can do no good except motivated by grace.

Blessings
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awesome post.

[N/A Gone]

still disagree and I think in grace and forgiveness and the whole "christ-thing" it is more about us becoming sanctified and working towards our relationship with God and handling our vice. Not "re-paying" indiovidual sins.

[littleflower+JMJ]

OPps I doubleposted! oh well!

I can't wait for this Holy Day of Obligation!!

Its going to be awesome!

[N/A Gone]

thursday is a holy day of obligation? I feel like an idiot...um, a pickle even.