Guns, Guns Guns

[misereremi]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1002744' date='Jun 11 2006, 02:10 AM']
This post actually makes the case that the violence in our society is the problem of the culture, not of gun-ownership. Guns have always been legal in this country, but back in my parents' day, there was much less violent crime. In areas where gun ownership is traditionally high, people are taught from an early age to respect guns as a dangerous tool, and to never use them casually.

The problem today is the gang culture, and the culture of death, in which human life is not respected, and a pop culture which regards killing people as "cool."
And areas where many people own guns, there is often less violent crime. Criminals are usually less reluctant to attack someone they know is unarmed.
Outlaw guns, and only criminals will carry guns.
[/quote]
Interesting points and I agree with what you say about the culture. Our baseline is different because you already have a tradition of gun ownership there. (but LA was like a warzone at times)

We have big problems with violence against the person crimes, especially related to alcohol abuse. Legal gun ownership would have terrible consequences here. I have serious reservations about people being responsible with guns in their homes. They will get to the streets.

It is becoming easier to access guns illegally on the street in many cities that I work in. The gun owners used to be those involved in crack and drug cartels, but now young kids feel they need guns. If the proposals go through for the arming of more police officers, I have no doubts that more criminals will arm themselves, and in turn more law-abiding civilians will feel the need to protect themselves. It won't be long when legalisation of guns will be considered. That is a scary prospect.

I'm all for prevention. We do have some good community-police task forces that are making a big difference in many areas and operations to tackle gun trafficking. I know first hand that the police can't usually get to a crime-scene on time, but with widespread gun use there could be a greater likelihood of fatality resulting from a shooting, than from a stabbing or ABH. And more chances of stray bullets hitting children and innocent bystanders, too.

What sad thoughts.

[Winchester]

bump.

[Socrates]

"I learn with great concern that [one] portion of our frontier so interesting, so important, and so exposed, should be so entirely unprovided with common fire-arms. I did not suppose any part of the United States so destitute of what is considered as among the first necessaries of a farm house."
Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Jacob J. Brown (1808)

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
Thomas Jefferson

"The constitutions of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; that they are entitled to freedom of person, freedom of religion, freedom of property and freedom of the press."
Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826), US Founding Father, drafted the Declaration of Independence, 3rd US President
Source a letter from Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright in 1824


"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
Thomas Jefferson, Proposed Virginia Constitution, 1776

"Among the natural rights of the colonists are these: first, a right to life, secondly to liberty, thirdly to property; together with the right to defend them in the best manner they can."
Samuel Adams

"...It is always dangerous to the liberties of the people to have an army stationed among them, over which they have no control...The Militia is composed of free Citizens. There is therefore no danger of their making use of their power to the destruction of their own Rights, or suffering others to invade them."
Samuel Adams

"The said Constitution [shall] be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press, or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms."
Samuel Adams of Massachusetts -- U.S. Constitution ratification convention, 1788

"Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation... Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms."
James Madison, Federalist Papers, #46 at 243-244.

"A people armed and free forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition and is a bulwark for
the nation against foreign invasion and domestic oppression."
James Madison (1751-1836), Father of the Constitution for the USA, 4th US President

"[Tyranny cannot be safe] without a standing army, an enslaved press, and a disarmed populace."
James Madison, In his autobiography

"Arms in the hands of the citizens may be used at individual discretion for the defense of the country, the overthrow of tyranny or private self-defense."
John Adams (1735-1826) Founding Father, 2nd US President A Defense of the Constitution of Government of the United States of America, 1788

"...but if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude, that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people, while there is a large body of citizens, little if at all inferior to them in discipline and use of arms, who stand ready to defend their rights..."
Alexander Hamilton Federalist 29

"... of the liberty of conscience in matters of religious faith, of speech and of the press; of the trial by jury of the vicinage in civil and criminal cases; of the benefit of the writ of habeas corpus; of the right to keep and bear arms.... If these rights are well defined, and secured against encroachment, it is impossible that government should ever degenerate into tyranny."
James Monroe (1758-1831), 5th US President

"The right of self-defense never ceases. It is among the most sacred, and alike necessary to nations and to individuals."
President James Monroe (November 16, 1818)

"That a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural and safe defense of a free state; that standing armies, in time of peace, should be avoided as dangerous to liberty; and that, in all cases, the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power."
Virginia Declaration of Rights 13 (June 12, 1776), drafted by George Mason

"I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole body of the people except for a few public officials. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them..."
George Mason (1725-1792), drafted the Virginia Declaration of Rights, ally of James Madison and George Washington

"That the people have a Right to mass and to bear arms; that a well regulated militia composed of the Body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper natural and safe defense of a free State..."
George Mason (1725-1792), drafted the Virginia Declaration of Rights, ally of James Madison and George Washington

"Are we at least brought to such a humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our own defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in our possession and under our own direction, and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?"
Patrick Henry, 3 Elliot Debates 168-169.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

Edited April 22, 2010 by Socrates

[SaintOfVirtue]

"History will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest." -Ghandi

[MichaelF]

Very few firearms used in the commission of a crime (especially street crimes) are legally owned. Legislate all you like, the criminals (by definition) won't be bothered by limits placed on law-abiding citizens. They'll get their guns the usual way (theft, smuggling, etc).

If you're worried about Uncle Bob getting into an argument with Aunt Jane and blowing her away with his legally-owned .45..........well, he's just as likely to grab a kitchen knife from the counter and do her in that way. Guns don't make crimes of passion any more severe.

I'm not going to disarm myself (or fellow citizens) in the hope of impeding wingnuts from shooting up schools. It's not a good trade.

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='SaintOfVirtue' date='23 April 2010 - 12:08 AM' timestamp='1271995690' post='2098391']
"History will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest." -Ghandi
[/quote]
Wow! Ghandi said that! Well, it makes sense. His peaceful movement required choice, no?

[SaintOfVirtue]

Another good gun quote: "When guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns"

[Winchester]

"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun."

[SaintOfVirtue]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WKLXCHgOiA[/media]

I like Steven Crowder's videos.

[Sternhauser]

A Hi-Point? Yeah, they're reliable. But a Hi-Point? [i]Really? [/i]Had some Plaxico/DEA "Only One"-style gun handling skills in the very first part, too.

~Sternhauser

Edited April 28, 2010 by Sternhauser

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='SaintOfVirtue' date='27 April 2010 - 03:58 PM' timestamp='1272398317' post='2101052']
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WKLXCHgOiA[/media]

I like Steven Crowder's videos.
[/quote]
I watched a bunch of his vids too. Glenn Beck's son?

[SaintOfVirtue]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='27 April 2010 - 05:33 PM' timestamp='1272414806' post='2101194']
I watched a bunch of his vids too. Glenn Beck's son?
[/quote]

No, I don't think he's related; though I have seen him on Glenn's program several times.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Winchester' date='26 April 2010 - 10:32 PM' timestamp='1272335572' post='2100729']
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun."
[/quote]
Thanks, Ash.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='SaintOfVirtue' date='27 April 2010 - 08:41 PM' timestamp='1272415266' post='2101199']
No, I don't think he's related; though I have seen him on Glenn's program several times.
[/quote]
me make joke

[SaintOfVirtue]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='27 April 2010 - 06:16 PM' timestamp='1272417417' post='2101237']
me make joke
[/quote]

oh, me understand now

[Ora et Labora]

[quote name='Socrates' date='22 April 2010 - 02:40 PM' timestamp='1271961616' post='2098110']
"I learn with great concern that [one] portion of our frontier so interesting, so important, and so exposed, should be so entirely unprovided with common fire-arms. I did not suppose any part of the United States so destitute of what is considered as among the first necessaries of a farm house."
Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Jacob J. Brown (1808)

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
Thomas Jefferson

"The constitutions of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; that they are entitled to freedom of person, freedom of religion, freedom of property and freedom of the press."
Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826), US Founding Father, drafted the Declaration of Independence, 3rd US President
Source a letter from Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright in 1824


"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
Thomas Jefferson, Proposed Virginia Constitution, 1776

"Among the natural rights of the colonists are these: first, a right to life, secondly to liberty, thirdly to property; together with the right to defend them in the best manner they can."
Samuel Adams

"...It is always dangerous to the liberties of the people to have an army stationed among them, over which they have no control...The Militia is composed of free Citizens. There is therefore no danger of their making use of their power to the destruction of their own Rights, or suffering others to invade them."
Samuel Adams

"The said Constitution [shall] be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press, or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms."
Samuel Adams of Massachusetts -- U.S. Constitution ratification convention, 1788

"Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation... Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms."
James Madison, Federalist Papers, #46 at 243-244.

"A people armed and free forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition and is a bulwark for
the nation against foreign invasion and domestic oppression."
James Madison (1751-1836), Father of the Constitution for the USA, 4th US President

"[Tyranny cannot be safe] without a standing army, an enslaved press, and a disarmed populace."
James Madison, In his autobiography

"Arms in the hands of the citizens may be used at individual discretion for the defense of the country, the overthrow of tyranny or private self-defense."
John Adams (1735-1826) Founding Father, 2nd US President A Defense of the Constitution of Government of the United States of America, 1788

"...but if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude, that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people, while there is a large body of citizens, little if at all inferior to them in discipline and use of arms, who stand ready to defend their rights..."
Alexander Hamilton Federalist 29

"... of the liberty of conscience in matters of religious faith, of speech and of the press; of the trial by jury of the vicinage in civil and criminal cases; of the benefit of the writ of habeas corpus; of the right to keep and bear arms.... If these rights are well defined, and secured against encroachment, it is impossible that government should ever degenerate into tyranny."
James Monroe (1758-1831), 5th US President

"The right of self-defense never ceases. It is among the most sacred, and alike necessary to nations and to individuals."
President James Monroe (November 16, 1818)

"That a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural and safe defense of a free state; that standing armies, in time of peace, should be avoided as dangerous to liberty; and that, in all cases, the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power."
Virginia Declaration of Rights 13 (June 12, 1776), drafted by George Mason

"I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole body of the people except for a few public officials. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them..."
George Mason (1725-1792), drafted the Virginia Declaration of Rights, ally of James Madison and George Washington

"That the people have a Right to mass and to bear arms; that a well regulated militia composed of the Body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper natural and safe defense of a free State..."
George Mason (1725-1792), drafted the Virginia Declaration of Rights, ally of James Madison and George Washington

"Are we at least brought to such a humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our own defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in our possession and under our own direction, and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?"
Patrick Henry, 3 Elliot Debates 168-169.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
[/quote]

Yay! ! !

[Winchester]

[b] [size=3]The State has the legal right to kill me whether I initiate an act of aggression or not. All I have to do is run afoul of one of the whimsical laws passed. Did I buy a rifle with a barrel less than 16"? I deserve, according to the State, to be put into a cage or to be killed if I resist being put in said cage. In my attempt to avoid this cage in the non-self-defense manner, I can choose between someone too incompetent to become a real lawyer in the marketplace or I can impoverish myself hiring a lawyer with my own money. There might be an individual who, believing this is wrong, works for free or a reduced fee--in which case the State has (in a manner of speaking) stolen from him.

How is this just?[/size][/b]


[size=3]There is the option of paying an extra fee to the State for permission to own some barrels of the arbitrarily chosen length. How is this distinct from a bribe?[/size]

[Jesus_lol]

As a long time Knife enthusiast, user and recent collecter i find similar parallels with legislation across the USA and canada, that i find somewhat disturbing.

also, should be going for my canadian license soon, looking into getting a .22 for target shooting (most common ammo, 10$ for 500 rounds, hells yeah) and a pump action 12 guage (mossberg 500 or remington 870) eventually, for [mod]language-MIKolbe[/mod] around with, hunting, etc.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1320009798' post='2329063']
As a long time Knife enthusiast, user and recent collecter i find similar parallels with legislation across the USA and canada, that i find somewhat disturbing.

also, should be going for my canadian license soon, looking into getting a .22 for target shooting (most common ammo, 10$ for 500 rounds, hells yeah) and a pump action 12 guage (mossberg 500 or remington 870) eventually, for [mod]language-MIKolbe[/mod] around with, hunting, etc.
[/quote]
Props to you, fellow knife enthusiast. I'm also an archery enthusiast and a particle beam weapon enthusiast.

[Maximilianus]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1320009798' post='2329063']
As a long time Knife enthusiast, user and recent collecter i find similar parallels with legislation across the USA and canada, that i find somewhat disturbing.

also, should be going for my canadian license soon, looking into getting a .22 for target shooting (most common ammo, 10$ for 500 rounds, hells yeah) and a pump action 12 guage (mossberg 500 or remington 870) eventually, for [mod]language-MIKolbe[/mod] around with, hunting, etc.
[/quote]

What are the requirements/steps to getting a hunting license up there?


[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1320021475' post='2329122']
Props to you, fellow knife enthusiast. I'm also an archery enthusiast and a particle beam weapon enthusiast.


[/quote]

Are you into traditional or modern... particle beams I mean.

Archery actually. I use a Martin Stick, it's a Howard Hill style long bow. I have a Compound bow, but never use it.

Edited October 31, 2011 by Maximilianus