Guns, Guns Guns

[PhillyMatt]

I firmly beleive in the 2nd ammendment and believe that all people have a right to self defense. I even have a Carry permit and I'm glad I have the option to carry if I feel the need.

From the Catechism: The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. "The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one's own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not." C.C.C.

[Guest Rick777]

i agree matt

[Church Punk]

I am shocked by the response for this post. Why do we need guns? What is everyone so afraid of that we must keep weapons with no purpose but to kill, in our homes.

Is this really how we should live as good Catholics? Why do we give into this culture of fear?

Many of you say you need a gun for protection. Protection from whom? If someone wants to rob you or kill you they will do it regardless if you have a gun or not.

Did Christ not say, do not be afraid I am with you always? If we have Christ with us why do need to carry weapons?

[PhillyMatt]

You're kidding me right? So if someone comes into my home and wants to do harm to me and my family, I shouldn't have the right to protect them? Wrong, I'm going to protect them anyway I can. Where I live, home invasion style robberies do happen with some consistence, and I think it's good to be prepared.
Call the cops you say? Maybe the kind criminal will wait before he starts having his way with the family so I can make a quick call. How long does it take police to show up anyway?

Have you seen the social anarchy that can occur during a natural disaster? Most of the New Orleans Police force went AWOL, who protected the citizens? Well, the ones with firearms had to protect themselves from the criminal element.

I know what Christ said, but telling a criminal those things probably won't do very good, but hey, if you wanna take that chance, that's up to you.

BTW, that quote about self-defense in my previous post is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church...

[chickens4life]

[quote name='Church Punk' date='Nov 15 2005, 10:35 AM']I am shocked by the response for this post. Why do we need guns? What is everyone so afraid of that we must keep weapons with no purpose but to kill, in our homes.

Is this really how we should live as good Catholics? Why do we give into this culture of fear?

Many of you say you need a gun for protection. Protection from whom? If someone wants to rob you or kill you they will do it regardless if you have a gun or not.

Did Christ not say, do not be afraid I am with you always? If we have Christ with us why do need to carry weapons?
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(I wont speak for others here, it is just from my own experiance that I speak.)

I think that most of us have guns for other reasons to, not just so we can shoot someone that threatens our life. I have them because I hunt, that dosn't mean that I would not use them in self defense.
Also most people that have guns practice with them and enjoy it, I don't know any one that just has guns because they think that they will have to shoot sombody. And even them the guns are just colecting dust, why dose that bother you?

[Church Punk]

I guess, its just a differance in our cultures. Up here I know all of one (1) person who actually has a gun. I have never heard of a home invasion before or one happening around here. I am I weird for not being in touch with this? But it just is not a reality where I live.

We dont lock our door day or night while we are home, we leave possesions out occasionally and they are still here in the morning. And its not that I live in a gated neighbourhood or anything I live in a city of significant size and it does have crime. I also live near what would be called the ghetto of town.

Really the only guns I see is when I cross the border at Detroit and the customs officer or marine has them.

I just dont see how a having a gun will improve my chances of saving my self from some sort of random act of voilance. If someone is going to shoot you what good is it if you have a gun locked up in your room?

However I guess I am just naieve to the fact that home invasions are common in other parts of the world. I am sorry for the previous post, but i just dont like guns.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Church Punk' date='Nov 15 2005, 08:35 AM']If someone wants to rob you or kill you they will do it regardless if you have a gun or not.
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Not if I fire first!!!!!

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Church Punk' date='Nov 15 2005, 08:35 AM']Did Christ not say, do not be afraid I am with you always? If we have Christ with us why do need to carry weapons?
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Peter had a sword in the garden of Gethsemane, as I recall.......

[PhillyMatt]

[quote name='Church Punk' date='Nov 15 2005, 07:12 PM']I guess, its just a differance in our cultures. Up here I know all of one (1) person who actually has a gun. I have never heard of a home invasion before or one happening around here. I am I weird for not being in touch with this? But it just is not a reality where I live.

We dont lock our door day or night while we are home, we leave possesions out occasionally and they are still here in the morning. And its not that I live in a gated neighbourhood or anything I live in a city of significant size and it does have crime. I also live near what would be called the ghetto of town.

Really the only guns I see is when I cross the border at Detroit and the customs officer or marine has them.

I just dont see how a having a gun will improve my chances of saving my self from some sort of random act of voilance. If someone is going to shoot you what good is it if you have a gun locked up in your room?

However I guess I am just naieve to the fact that home invasions are common in other parts of the world. I am sorry for the previous post, but i just dont like guns.
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Church,

You're right, it is more of a culteral thing. Americans tend to like being prepared and to take care of themselves when things go bad or challenges arise, whereas people with a European/Socialist mentality tend to like the government to take care of them.

I know plenty of people that live out in the country where crime is low, they still have guns. They are prepared to defend themselves in case something happens, civil unrest, crime, natural disaster. It also allows a certain amount of power to be in the citizens hands, not just in the gov't.....gov'ts go bad sometime ya know. I bet some citizens in France wish they were allowed to keep guns during the 17 days and counting of rioting....

[Church Punk]

I guess you have good points on that. But if guns were taken out of the picture period there would be less deaths as a result of crime. Think about it if some comes at you with a club or a knife, you have a much better chance of defending your self than if they shoot your from 15 m away.

I just feel that if you have that power available you may be tempted to shoot first and ask questions later in a spur of a moment, when things are uncomfortable, instead of logically thinking your situation through.

With great power comes great responsiblity.



[quote]Peter had a sword in the garden of Gethsemane, as I recall.......[/quote]

And what did Jesus tell him about using his sword????

"He who lives by the sword, shall die by the sword"

[PhillyMatt]

[quote name='Church Punk' date='Nov 16 2005, 08:57 AM']I guess you have good points on that. But if guns were taken out of the picture period there would be less deaths as a result of crime. Think about it if some comes at you with a club or a knife, you have a much better chance of defending your self than if they shoot your from 15 m away.

I just feel that if you have that power available you may be tempted to shoot first and ask questions later in a spur of a moment, when things are uncomfortable, instead of logically thinking your situation through.

With great power comes great responsiblity.
And what did Jesus tell him about using his sword????

"He who lives by the sword, shall die by the sword"
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[/quote]

That's cool, but if you are issued a permit to carry, it's a huge responsibility. You have to know all the implications that could occur if you decide to use your gun in the defense of yourself or another life....it starts by not putting yourself in those types of situations. So people that have guns legally tend to be way more cautious and try to stay away from dangerous situations.

[PadreSantiago]

ok I think I can really make a difference in this thread. Let us all bask in the knowledge of my favorite prophet....homer simpson


"A gun isn't a weapon; it's a tool. Like a harpoon, or a hammer or a ... an alligator. You just need more education on this subject."

"Lisa, if I didn't have this gun, the king of England could walk right in here and start pushing you around. "

and lastly a jewish perspective in the form of krusty the clown:

"Hey yutz. Guns aren't toys - - they're for family protection, hunting dangerous and delicious animals, and keeping the king of England out your face. "

[heavenseeker]

Yes, only ones used to hunt though.

I think it would be better if they would have to rent the hunting guns but that would cause a hassle so I will stick to my vote of only guns used for hunting.

[Socrates]

[quote name='heavenseeker' post='1001450' date='Jun 9 2006, 03:25 PM']
Yes, only ones used to hunt though.

I think it would be better if they would have to rent the hunting guns but that would cause a hassle so I will stick to my vote of only guns used for hunting.
[/quote]
When the First Amendment was drafted, hunting wasn't the issue - it was about [b]arms[/b] - weapons for defense. People being allowed to hunt was never an issue.

Almost three years and 214 posts, let's keep it rolling! :

[heavenseeker]

i know what the first amendment called for but that was before we had an army or poliece forces. now days we have those things and the need for people to have a gun for protection have passed. now days the only reason a civilian would need a gun for is to hunt. that is why i voted the way i did.

[Mercy me]

Keep guns from felons would be about my only requirement.

[misereremi]

I can't say for places where guns are already legal, but I vote for NO guns at all here because we don't need another tool on the streets. We deal with enough problems with knives and bare fists as it is. We deal with heroin addicts threatening people with infected needles, all sorts of madness. I've seen too many people get stabbed, or beaten to a pulp over flared tempers or misunderstandings, may they rest in peace. People who weren't violent by nature gave in to paranoia, revenge, etc. And all of the people who have to witness these things are scarred by them.

I guess I'm biased because I've seen gun violence as a kid in LA, and to see that the same things are now happening a lot more here makes me worry about my children. Even our police force that had relied on batons, is still coming to grips with how/when to use the guns they've been given, and they are under incredible pressure.

I can fully understand that people -and I include myself-are scared and want to defend their homes and families, but I don't think legalising guns for civilian use is the solution.

[Socrates]

[quote name='heavenseeker' post='1001705' date='Jun 9 2006, 06:15 PM']
i know what the first amendment called for but that was before we had an army or poliece forces. now days we have those things and the need for people to have a gun for protection have passed. now days the only reason a civilian would need a gun for is to hunt. that is why i voted the way i did.
[/quote]
". . . the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Pretty plainly stated, and obviously the framers though this important enough to make amendment to the constitution. And the country did have an army and police then.

Tyranny prefers an unarmed citizenry.

And the need for guns for protection has certainly not passed!
Guns continue to be quite useful for defending against violent attackers. A person being violently attacked by a would-be murderer does not have time to call the cops! (Think about it!)

[quote name='misereremi' post='1002255' date='Jun 10 2006, 03:11 AM']
I can't say for places where guns are already legal, but I vote for NO guns at all here because we don't need another tool on the streets. We deal with enough problems with knives and bare fists as it is. We deal with heroin addicts threatening people with infected needles, all sorts of madness. I've seen too many people get stabbed, or beaten to a pulp over flared tempers or misunderstandings, may they rest in peace. People who weren't violent by nature gave in to paranoia, revenge, etc. And all of the people who have to witness these things are scarred by them.

I guess I'm biased because I've seen gun violence as a kid in LA, and to see that the same things are now happening a lot more here makes me worry about my children. Even our police force that had relied on batons, is still coming to grips with how/when to use the guns they've been given, and they are under incredible pressure.

I can fully understand that people -and I include myself-are scared and want to defend their homes and families, but I don't think legalising guns for civilian use is the solution.
[/quote]
This post actually makes the case that the violence in our society is the problem of the culture, not of gun-ownership. Guns have always been legal in this country, but back in my parents' day, there was much less violent crime. In areas where gun ownership is traditionally high, people are taught from an early age to respect guns as a dangerous tool, and to never use them casually.

The problem today is the gang culture, and the culture of death, in which human life is not respected, and a pop culture which regards killing people as "cool."
And areas where many people own guns, there is often less violent crime. Criminals are usually less reluctant to attack someone they know is unarmed.
Outlaw guns, and only criminals will carry guns.

[heavenseeker]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1002744' date='Jun 10 2006, 08:10 PM']
". . . the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Pretty plainly stated, and obviously the framers though this important enough to make amendment to the constitution. And the country did have an army and police then.

Tyranny prefers an unarmed citizenry.

And the need for guns for protection has certainly not passed!
Guns continue to be quite useful for defending against violent attackers. A person being violently attacked by a would-be murderer does not have time to call the cops! (Think about it!)
[/quote]

it was important at the time yes but now days it is not. the army of the time was made of these otherwise civilians which had little to no training.

as far as the need for guns as defence from attackers goes. Most attacks and violent acts are made by a civilian with a gun, so if guns are regulated to hunting and made so you have to be registered as a owner then your reasoning for needing guns for defence is defeated.

[Guest servi_madonna_eucharistia_09]

i agree that we as people and protectors should be allowed to have them, but only to practice with them at firing ranges or soe such place or to only be allowed to use them for complete defense of one's self and one's family. also, they should be limited to smaller guns