do protestants understand salvation to the fullest

[infinitelord1]

yet again there is so much that just flashes through my genious mind in such a short period of time to really remember everything that i would like to put into words here .

So hopefully what i say will spark some debate.

I may not fully understand the protestant ideal of salvation. But from what i have gathered.......believing in jesus christ is enough to get into heaven. When i ask a protestant what salvation means to them this is what they say. i started going to a baptist church when i was around 15 years old. I talked to a youth counselor about being saved. We sat in a room for about 2 hours. He answered a few questions and at the end of our meeting he asked me if i was ready to be saved. I kind of sat there thinking and i really didnt know what to say. I just kind of went with the flow and i said, "yeah i guess". So, the next step was this......we said a prayer (lead by the minister) and basically it sounded like he was asking god to save me ( he asked me if i accepted jesus christ into my heart of course). at the end of the all of this he told me i was saved. I certainly didnt feel any different. I guess i felt good inside, but as time permitted it didnt seem like it was enough for me. I had a lot of questions.......and i still do. It really seemed like accepting jesus as my saviour was more of a forced thing. It was like i accepted this thing that i really knew nothing about.

Over time i think i may have come up with my own idea of salvation. First it was to learn about the nature of god. Coming to phatmass has helped a lot with this and also a couple of friends of mine helped a lot too. A friend of mine who goes to Texas A&M seems to have an interest in philosophy. So me and him would sit around and debate and over time everything he said just started to make sense. Then we would talk about god and how he works. Not so much from a loving perspective but from more of a philosophical perspective. it all seemed to fit together like some kind of puzzle. A firm believer might say it all fits perfectly. And then, being the thinker that i am, i kind of took off from there. It was like with the knowledge that was given to me i started to think more objectively and answer things for myself. I dont know if i did it myself or if god chose to reveal it to me. I certainly dont rule out god revealing it to me. All in all, i have come to realize that we are not perfect. We will never know the complete truth to anything. And i believe that salvation is not achieved at any one point in my or anyone else's lifespan. I think that as we grow inside we come that much closer to god. And in the end god will judge us and at his mercy will accept those who are willing into his kingdom. What do you think?

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

protestants are my homiesssss

[JimFurst]

There are many Protestant denominations each with differing requirements for salvation. A conservative Anglican will have a very different idea about salavation than a Southern Baptist.

Some Protestants believe once "saved" always saved. (Done deal) Others have a more Catholic view that we work out our salvation in fear and trembling.

You really have to be very specific about the Protestant group.

Jim

[rkwright]

umm...I'm kinda left in the vauge about what exactly you're meaning by all this.

Knowing God is important, through many means (philosophy, the Bible, other people's lives), and its good to know Him in every way.

But salvation through knowing him alone? I mean the Devil and fallen angels know God, maybe even in a better sense than most humans would.

Ask yourself this, if belief in God the Father was all God wanted, or is required, why would God send the Son for the Jews of the time, who certainly knew God the Father?

The Bible lays out a pretty clear case for salvation, and it is through Jesus. Only through Him can we know the Father, drinking His blood and eating His flesh is what gains eternal life, you get the point. There are too many times in the Bible where Jesus (and as you rightly assert in your other thread, God) tells us that salvation is only available through Him.

[rkwright]

btw whose the friend at A&M? I go there !

[infinitelord1]

im wondering what you think salvation is or what does your church think? (if you are protestant). We can debate once you have revealed this to us.

The catholic interpretation of salvation is faith, hope, and charity. Not one of these but all of them to be specific. Not anywhere does it say anything about fear and trembling......just another mislead idea of the catholic church.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='rkwright' date='Dec 31 2005, 02:49 PM']umm...I'm kinda left in the vauge about what exactly you're meaning by all this. 

Knowing God is important, through many means (philosophy, the Bible, other people's lives), and its good to know Him in every way. 

But salvation through knowing him alone?  I mean the Devil and fallen angels know God, maybe even in a better sense than most humans would. 

Ask yourself this, if belief in God the Father was all God wanted, or is required, why would God send the Son for the Jews of the time, who certainly knew God the Father?

The Bible lays out a pretty clear case for salvation, and it is through Jesus.  Only through Him can we know the Father, drinking His blood and eating His flesh is what gains eternal life, you get the point.  There are too many times in the Bible where Jesus (and as you rightly assert in your other thread, God) tells us that salvation is only available through Him.
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now i guess we have to define what "salvation only through jesus christ" truelly means.

[jesussaves]

If you would read the last parts of the salvation repent thread by me, you would understand. Catholics think sins can take the grace of salvation from someone. We believe that no sin can do that. Not sinning is only the result of salvation through faith alone. It's not faith and not sinning as taught by the Cchurch.

[rkwright]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Dec 31 2005, 01:56 PM']im wondering what you think salvation is or what does your church think? (if you are protestant). We can debate once you have revealed this to us.

The catholic interpretation of salvation is faith, hope, and charity. Not one of these but all of them to be specific. Not anywhere does it say anything about fear and trembling......just another mislead idea of the catholic church.
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If this is directed towards me...

I'm Catholic so I believe in the Church's teaching for salvation. But I don't remember saying anything about fear and trembling?

I guess you could say our interpretation of salvation is faith, hope, and charity. But it would be important to know exactly what you have faith in, and thats where I was saying faith in salvation through Christ.

From the Catechism
[quote]619 "Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures" (I Cor 15:3).

620 Our salvation flows from God's initiative of love for us, because "he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins" (I Jn 4:10). "God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself" (2 Cor 5:19).

621 Jesus freely offered himself for our salvation. Beforehand, during the Last Supper, he both symbolized this offering and made it really present: "This is my body which is given for you" (Lk 22:19).

622 The redemption won by Christ consists in this, that he came "to give his life as a ransom for many" (Mt 20:28), that is, he "loved [his own] to the end" (Jn 13:1), so that they might be "ransomed from the futile ways inherited from [their] fathers" (I Pt 1:18).

623 By his loving obedience to the Father, "unto death, even death on a cross" (Phil 2:8), Jesus fulfills the atoning mission (cf. Is 53:10) of the suffering Servant, who will "make many righteous; and he shall bear their iniquities" (Is 53:11; cf. Rom 5:19).
[/quote]

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Dec 31 2005, 03:13 PM']If you would read the last parts of the salvation repent thread by me, you would understand. Catholics think sins can take the grace of salvation from someone. We believe that no sin can do that. Not sinning is only the result of salvation through faith alone. It's not faith and not sinning as taught by the Cchurch.
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i agree with this catholic philosophy. I believe that through sin we seperate ourselves from communion with god. The more we sin the further away from god we fall. The less we sin the closer we come to communion with god. Lets take a liberal for example.....a liberal is more likely to accept a more sinful nature.....therefore he is most likely further away from god than someone who lives a good life. Just talk to someone who is liberal......they really dont know much about anything. They could be right or they could be wrong about an issue. They base their beliefs on the way they feel about things. I would say that this person is further from the truth than someone who lives their life as jesus did. I dont think that gods grace could ever be fully removed from any human being.......I also think that most orthodox catholics dont think that either as well as the vatican.

Edited December 31, 2005 by infinitelord1

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='rkwright' date='Dec 31 2005, 03:21 PM']If this is directed towards me...

I'm Catholic so I believe in the Church's teaching for salvation.  But I don't remember saying anything about fear and trembling? 

I guess you could say our interpretation of salvation is faith, hope, and charity.  But it would be important to know exactly what you have faith in, and thats where I was saying faith in salvation through Christ. 

From the Catechism
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no that was for jim

[jesussaves]

Yes you exactly correct about how those who sin more are further away from God. BUT, the grace of salvation cannot be lost to a single sin, as taught by the Catholic Church.

Pray to the Holy Spirit, and He will guide your mind.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Dec 31 2005, 03:29 PM']Yes you exactly correct about how those who sin more are further away from God. BUT, the grace of salvation cannot be lost to a single sin, as taught by the Catholic Church.

Pray to the Holy Spirit, and He will guide your mind.
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i dont believe the catholic church teaches that.

[rkwright]

Anyways, I'm sorry I somewhat hijacked your thread, but your first post somewhat bothered me. What exactly do you believe, or as you say, what exactly is your own idea of salvation? Maybe I'm reading it wrong but from what your first post, second paragraph, it made it sound like that we work in this life to know God, and at he end he will judge us...

Is this an accurate representation of what your own idea of salvation is? Please forgive me if its not!


EDIT! My fault! looks like you were talking to Jim and Jesussaves

Edited December 31, 2005 by rkwright

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='rkwright' date='Dec 31 2005, 03:31 PM']Anyways, I'm sorry I somewhat hijacked your thread, but your first post somewhat bothered me.  What exactly do you believe, or as you say, what exactly is your own idea of salvation?  Maybe I'm reading it wrong but from what your first post, second paragraph, it made it sound like that we work in this life to know God, and at he end he will judge us...

Is this an accurate representation of what your own idea of salvation is?  Please forgive me if its not!
EDIT! My fault! looks like you were talking to Jim and Jesussaves
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I think that through learning about god and his nature your faith will increase and you will grow........so long as you stay along the right path. I cant say that this is the only way.......i dont know enough of the truth to make such an assessment.

[sweetpea316]

I've been raised to believe sola fide, by faith alone you are saved. (In the Lutheran church) But, I no longer believe this. Two things that we (Protestant & Catholic) do agree on are... 1. That it is by the grace of God... and 2. That you can receive salvation only through Christ.

I've been digging through the Bible and apologetics stuff lately to try and get the info I need to back my new Catholic beliefs up to my Protestant parents, so I've got a lot on my mind about this!

One of my favorite points though, is that the only place where the terms "faith alone" are used is in James....where it says that it is NOT by faith alone, but that works play into it also. Anyways...

[jesussaves]

*i dont believe the catholic church teaches that.*

It's called a mortal sin. Perhaps I should have specified a single "mortal" sin. But that Church does teach that anyone that has faith in Christ, but commits a single mortal sin and then die without happening to be repentant, will have all their graces that they earned remitted, including the grace of salvation. That person will burn in hell forever.

That is not the glory of the gosple! The gosple says that faith alone which must be accompanied by good works is what saves. No sin can cause separation to what God has saved.

Come, Lord, expel the darkness from the hearts and minds of these deceived, and enlighten them to your glory.

Edited December 31, 2005 by jesussaves

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Dec 31 2005, 03:46 PM']*i dont believe the catholic church teaches that.*

It's called a mortal sin in CChurch teaching. Perhaps I should have specified a single "mortal" sin. But that Church does teach that anyone that has faith in Christ, but commits a single mortal sin and then die without happening to be repentant, will have all their graces that they earned remitted, including the grace of salvation. That person will burn in hell forever.

That is not the glory of the gosple! The gosple says that faith alone which must be accompanied by good works is what saves. No sin can cause separation to what God has saved.

Come, Lord, expel the darkness from the hearts and minds of these deceived, and enlighten them to your glory.
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I think that the true definition of mortal sin is a sin that we choose to continue to commit throughout the course of our lifespan. Isnt that what mortal sin is? A single mortal sin that i commit everyday would be chewing tabacco. The sin is mortal because it is a sin i do everyday.

[jesussaves]

You are mistaken about Catholic mortal sins. I will respond in two forms.

From the Catholic perspective, chewing tobacco is a venial bad habit, not mortal something you do everyday. A mortal sin are certain undefined sins which you must grow to understand as mortal, such as lustful thoughts, and then commit. If chewing tobacco everyday is a mortal sin, or whatever mortal sin you want to talk about, the ramifications of the sin is not only that you do it everyday. Once committed mortally, any faith in Christ which you have becomes nothing and you will be damned if you do not repent of your sin.

From my perspective, I think chewing tobacco is even a mortal sin. You are defiling God's temple of the Spirit. Pride for an example is putting yourself before God's truth breaking the first commandment.

Even if I were to grant a difference between the two sins, I also have a new theory regarding venial and mortal sins. I agree that Catholics believe that a venial sin does not separate them from salvation. The problem is that they believe a venial sin isn't as dangerous as a mortal sin. This allows them to not put their trust in Christ. They believe that as long as they don't commit these grave sins and only commit these lesser sins or theoretically no sins they are safe. They end up trusting in themselves and Christ, which essentially isn't trusting in Christ.

Edited December 31, 2005 by jesussaves

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Dec 31 2005, 04:09 PM']You are mistaken about Catholic mortal sins. I will respond in two forms.

From the Catholic perspective, chewing tobacco is a venial bad habit, not mortal something you do everyday. A mortal sin are certain undefined sins which you must grow to understand as mortal, such as lustful thoughts, and then commit. Once committed, any faith in Christ which you have becomes nothing and you will be damned if you do not repent of your sin.

From my perspective, I think chewing tobacco is even a mortal sin. You are defiling God's temple of the Spirit. Pride for an example is putting yourself before God's truth.

Regardless, I also have a new theory regarding venial and mortal sins. I agree that Catholics believe that a venial sin does not separate them from salvation. The problem is that they believe a venial sin isn't as dangerous as a mortal sin. This allows them to not put their trust in Christ. They believe that as long as they don't commit these grave sins and only commit these lesser sins or theoretically no sins they are safe. They end up trusting in themselves and Christ, which essentially isn't trusting in Christ.
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Mortal Sin


The concept of mortal sin has been an integral part of the Christian message since the very beginning. Literally dozens of passages in the New Testament proclaim it a fearful reality, and these biblical teachings were fully accepted by, and indeed expounded upon, by the early Church Fathers.

It was not until the time of John Calvin that anyone would claim that it was impossible for a true Christian to lose his salvation. That teaching, which was not even shared by Martin Luther and his followers, was a theological novelty of the mid-sixteenth century, a teaching which would have been condemned as a dangerous heresy by all previous generations of Christians. It would drive people to the despair of thinking that, if they had committed grave sins, they had never been true Christians. Further, they would suffer similar anxiety over any subsequent conversion, since their first would not have been genuine, according to this teaching. Or it would drive them into thinking that their grave sins were really not grave at all, for no true Christian could have committed such sins.

In time the "once saved, always saved" teaching even degenerated in many Evangelical circles to the point that some would claim that a Christian could commit grave sins and still remain saved: sin did not injure his relationship with God at all.

Fortunately, most Christians today reject Calvin’s error, acknowledging that there are at least some mortal sins—sins which kill the spiritual life of the soul and deprive a person of salvation, unless he repents. Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists, Pentecostals—all acknowledge the possibility of mortal sin at least in some form. Only Presbyterians, Baptists, and those who have been influenced by these two sects reject the reality of mortal sin.

The early Church Fathers, of course, were unanimous in teaching the reality of mortal sin. They had to embrace the doctrine of mortal sin precisely because they recognized not only the salvific power of baptism but also the damning power of certain serious sins. The Church taught that "baptism . . . now saves you" (1 Pet. 3:21; see the Catholic Answers tracts Baptismal Grace and Born of Water and the Spirit). However, since during the persecutions some baptized people denied Christ, and since Christ taught that "whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 10:33), the Church Fathers recognized that it was possible to lose the grace of salvation after baptism.

The idea that one could never lose salvation would have been unimaginable to them, since it was evident from the Bible that baptism saves, that the baptized can deny Christ, and that those who deny Christ will not be saved unless they repent, as did Peter.

It was equally unthinkable to predestinarian thinkers, such as Augustine, who, just two years before he died, taught in his book The Gift of Perseverance that not all who were predestined to come to God’s grace were predestined to remain with him until glory. This was, in fact, the teaching of all the high predestinarians (Augustine, Fulgentius, Aquinas, Luther)—until the time of Calvin.

Notice how the article points out that sins can deprive us from salvation if they go unrepented. Trust me this is what catholics believe.

Edited December 31, 2005 by infinitelord1