married priests and nuns

[Andrea348]

was there any time in church history when priests and nuns were allowed to be married?

i was debating with a co-worker about this and i was wondering if any of you had some insight

[Cam42]

[quote name='Andrea348' date='Jan 9 2006, 05:40 PM']was there any time in church history when priests and nuns were allowed to be married?

i was debating with a co-worker about this and i was wondering if any of you had some insight
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Priests yes, up until the 7th century or there abouts. Nuns and religious, no. Part of the charism of religious life is being single and living a chaste life, which means being celibate.

[thessalonian]

Actually Eastern Rite priests and perhaps some other rites are allowed to be married today. There are also some Latin Rite married priests who have converted from Churches such as Anglican and Lutheran. I understand there were about 500 of them who came in to the Church in the mid 90's when the Anglicans started ordaining women.

As a discipline it is not allowed in the western rite.

It should also be noted that to my knowledge priests and deacons have NEVER been allowed to marry after ordination.

Edited January 9, 2006 by thessalonian

[photosynthesis]

I don't think monks and nuns have ever been allowed to marry. That would undermine the character of religious life... Even from the earliest times of monasticism (like the Desert Fathers) religious people have always been celibate.

[qfnol31]

There are some Priests, however, who are allowed to enter the Church as both Priests and married. These are mainly Anglicans.

I have two at my parish in fact.

[Guest JeffCR07]

To sum up concisely what has been said by everyone so far:

In the Eastern tradition, priests have always been allowed to be married. In the West, priests were allowed to be married until about the 7th century, at which point the western church found it to be a prudent and practical decision to have only unmarried priests. In both eastern and western tradition, celibacy has been a necessary aspect of religious life (i.e. nuns, monks, etc). Generally speaking, if an unmarried man is ordained a priest, it is understood that he will remain unmarried. Regarding the western practice of maintaining an unmarried priesthood, because it is a prudential decision, extraordinary situations are allowed for. These include protestant ministers who are married and convert to the faith, and who are properly ordained upon their conversion.

[rkwright]

when you are speaking eastern tradition, are you speaking of EO or Eastern Rite Catholics? I understand Eastern Orthodox Priests can marry but can Eastern Rite Catholic priests marry?

[Guest JeffCR07]

Both, the eastern tradition is identical in each. Denial of the papal office is not an aspect of eastern tradition, and so there is absolutely no difference between the tradition held by the Eastern Rites in communion with Rome and the Eastern Churches that are not.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='rkwright' date='Jan 9 2006, 05:34 PM']when you are speaking eastern tradition, are you speaking of EO or Eastern Rite Catholics? I understand Eastern Orthodox Priests can marry but can Eastern Rite Catholic priests marry?
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ER priests can in fact marry before they become priests. Not after.

[rkwright]

so..could I get married, switch to ER and then become a priest?? Or does Rome have a problem with that....

[Era Might]

Married men are not admitted to Holy Orders in the Eastern Churches of the United States. Even if they were, the respective Bishops (Latin and Eastern) would not approve your transfer just so you could escape the laws of your Sui Iuris Church. It must be borne from a true appreciation for the Eastern heritage.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='rkwright' date='Jan 9 2006, 05:52 PM']so..could I get married, switch to ER and then become a priest?? Or does Rome have a problem with that....
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The ER actually to my understanding have a problem with it. They would not consider you a good candidate because of your motivation for switching. I am sure rome does as well.

[Andrea348]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Jan 9 2006, 07:08 PM']In the West, priests were allowed to be married until about the 7th century, at which point the western church found it to be a prudent and practical decision to have only unmarried priests. [right][snapback]850979[/snapback][/right]
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why did they even have married priests in the first place....did they have a rational? does anybody know a little more about why they changed, like documentation as to why?

[Era Might]

[quote name='Andrea348' date='Jan 9 2006, 08:43 PM']why did they even have married priests in the first place....did they have a rational?  does anybody know a little more about why they changed, like documentation as to why?
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Most Christian converts in the early, early Church were married. There wasn't much of a choice. Married men made up society, and hence, for the most part, they made up the Priesthood. It remained this way for centuries, as Christian disciplines are wont to do. There is evidence that married Clerics were to abstain from conjugal relations, although it isn't uniform. Gradually, the Western theological tradition formed itself around an entirely celibate Priesthood, and adjusted its discipline accordingly. The East did not abandon the ancient discipline, which admitted married men and celibates alike; (Although in the East, Bishops are always celibate).

Fr. Christian Cochini's "The Apostolic Origins of Priestly Celibacy" is a pretty exhaustive treatment of the subject, although I have seen it criticized by Anthony Dragani, an Eastern Catholic academic who answers questions over at EWTN. I think he did a study himself, for his Doctorate. It would be interesting to see the difference in historical perspective between an Eastern and a Western scholar.

Edited January 10, 2006 by Era Might

[journeyman]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Jan 9 2006, 05:08 PM']To sum up concisely what has been said by everyone so far:

In the Eastern tradition, priests have always been allowed to be married. In the West, priests were allowed to be married until about the 7th century, at which point the western church found it to be a prudent and practical decision to have only unmarried priests. In both eastern and western tradition, celibacy has been a necessary aspect of religious life (i.e. nuns, monks, etc). Generally speaking, if an unmarried man is ordained a priest, it is understood that he will remain unmarried. Regarding the western practice of maintaining an unmarried priesthood, because it is a prudential decision, extraordinary situations are allowed for. These include protestant ministers who are married and convert to the faith, and who are properly ordained upon their conversion.
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Even though the priests in the eastern tradition could be married, I believe only unmarried, or widowed and unremarried could be elevated to bishop.

[Mikhail]

Here's how the story goes.

Once upon a time, there were priests or ministers of the church. Now whether or not these guys were married was their own business. Paul suggested that it was better to be single, but certainly not required to serve God. Then along came monks and nuns. One of the essential parts of being a monk or nun was to take a vow a chastity in order to focus on serving God. Very noble. (nods) Things where like this for around 11 centuries. Then the Church in Spain started noticing a problem. They were losing money when the priests were passing their property or property given them by the church on to their children. Now this horrified the church leaders. They needed their money, you know. So they came up with a brilliant solution. Let's make all our priests take a vow of chastity!! As expected, that solved the problem beautifully. The Church could continue being rich, and priests wouldn't get married. And it's been like that ever since.

The end

There is the history lesson for the year. See ya'll next year. And don't bother arguing with me. By the time I see the replies, you'll all be long dead....I mean, this topic will be.

[Era Might]

That would make for a nice Soap Opera episode. Unfortunately, it's not based in any historical reality.

Dan Brown, answer your phone...

[quote name='Mikhail' date='Jan 10 2006, 08:13 AM']Here's how the story goes.

Once upon a time, there were priests or ministers of the church. Now whether or not these guys were married was their own business. Paul suggested that it was better to be single, but certainly not required to serve God. Then along came monks and nuns. One of the essential parts of being a monk or nun was to take a vow a chastity in order to focus on serving God. Very noble. (nods) Things where like this for around 11 centuries. Then the Church in Spain started noticing a problem. They were losing money when the priests were passing their property or property given them by the church on to their children. Now this horrified the church leaders. They needed their money, you know. So they came up with a brilliant solution. Let's make all our priests take a vow of chastity!! As expected, that solved the problem beautifully. The Church could continue being rich, and priests wouldn't get married. And it's been like that ever since.

The end

There is the history lesson for the year. See ya'll next year. And don't bother arguing with me. By the time I see the replies, you'll all be long dead....I mean, this topic will be.
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[rkwright]

[quote name='Mikhail' date='Jan 10 2006, 05:13 AM']Here's how the story goes.

Once upon a time, there were priests or ministers of the church. Now whether or not these guys were married was their own business. Paul suggested that it was better to be single, but certainly not required to serve God. Then along came monks and nuns. One of the essential parts of being a monk or nun was to take a vow a chastity in order to focus on serving God. Very noble. (nods) Things where like this for around 11 centuries. Then the Church in Spain started noticing a problem. They were losing money when the priests were passing their property or property given them by the church on to their children. Now this horrified the church leaders. They needed their money, you know. So they came up with a brilliant solution. Let's make all our priests take a vow of chastity!! As expected, that solved the problem beautifully. The Church could continue being rich, and priests wouldn't get married. And it's been like that ever since.

The end

There is the history lesson for the year. See ya'll next year. And don't bother arguing with me. By the time I see the replies, you'll all be long dead....I mean, this topic will be.
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yes it seems that this was already happening way before the 11th century, more liek what the others were posting in the 7th century or so... One of the problems Phitous had with the western church was married priests, and he was around in the 800's which would point to it being practiced for some time in the west.

[dandy777]

This is really an interesting topic. I have a question though. Why did the Church feel the need to introduce celibacy into priesthood?

[qfnol31]

I believe there was a lot of immorality involved, actually.