married priests and nuns

[Myles Domini]

[quote name='Mikhail' date='Jan 10 2006, 12:13 PM']Here's how the story goes.

Once upon a time, there were priests or ministers of the church. Now whether or not these guys were married was their own business. Paul suggested that it was better to be single, but certainly not required to serve God. Then along came monks and nuns. One of the essential parts of being a monk or nun was to take a vow a chastity in order to focus on serving God. Very noble. (nods) Things where like this for around 11 centuries. Then the Church in Spain started noticing a problem. They were losing money when the priests were passing their property or property given them by the church on to their children. Now this horrified the church leaders. They needed their money, you know. So they came up with a brilliant solution. Let's make all our priests take a vow of chastity!! As expected, that solved the problem beautifully. The Church could continue being rich, and priests wouldn't get married. And it's been like that ever since.

The end

There is the history lesson for the year. See ya'll next year. And don't bother arguing with me. By the time I see the replies, you'll all be long dead....I mean, this topic will be.
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History lesson? Of what planet? : The Council of Elvira, which introduced mandatory celibacy for the priesthood of Hispania was in the 4th century not the 11th. Priestly celibacy spread throughout the West until the 10th century collapse of faith, morals and society which led to the reforming papacies of the 11th century particularly the Hildebrandine era in which the priesthood taking its model from the monastic communities was disciplined for the scandals of the previous century.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='dandy777' date='Jan 10 2006, 10:24 AM']This is really an interesting topic. I have a question though. Why did the Church feel the need to introduce celibacy into priesthood?
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They did not introduce it. Celibacy was common before the 7th century. It became mandatory in the 11th century. Christ himself proclaims the advantage of celibacy in Matt 19 and Paul in 1 Cor 7.

Edited January 10, 2006 by thessalonian

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Interesting fact - St. Peter was married:
[quote]Jesus entered the house of Peter, and saw his mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever.
[i]Matthew 8:14[/i][/quote]
[quote]Simon's mother-in-law lay sick with a fever. They immediately told him about her.
[i]Mark 1:30[/i][/quote]
[quote]After he left the synagogue, he entered the house of Simon. Simon's mother-in-law was afflicted with a severe fever, and they interceded with him about her.
[i]Luke 4:38[/i][/quote]
[quote]Do we not have the right to take along a Christian wife, as do the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Kephas?
[i]1 Corinthians 9:5[/i][/quote]

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote name='Mikhail' date='Jan 10 2006, 06:13 AM']Here's how the story goes.

Once upon a time, there were priests or ministers of the church. Now whether or not these guys were married was their own business. Paul suggested that it was better to be single, but certainly not required to serve God. Then along came monks and nuns. One of the essential parts of being a monk or nun was to take a vow a chastity in order to focus on serving God. Very noble. (nods) Things where like this for around 11 centuries. Then the Church in Spain started noticing a problem. They were losing money when the priests were passing their property or property given them by the church on to their children. Now this horrified the church leaders. They needed their money, you know. So they came up with a brilliant solution. Let's make all our priests take a vow of chastity!! As expected, that solved the problem beautifully. The Church could continue being rich, and priests wouldn't get married. And it's been like that ever since.

The end

There is the history lesson for the year. See ya'll next year. And don't bother arguing with me. By the time I see the replies, you'll all be long dead....I mean, this topic will be.
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hahaha,

Ok, but seriously people, Myles has given some good references to look up, and Thess is right with his reply to dandy. Just to take it a little further regarding Christ and Paul:

We have to remember that when questioned about the Resurrection by the Saducees, Our Lord teaches us that there will be no marriage in heaven, and we recall that sex is proper only to marriage. From this point, we can easily see why Paul would teach that celibacy is preferred: we are preparing ourselves for the Second Coming and the Eternal Kingdom, and on the New Earth, there will be no marriage (and therefore no sex). So, the person who remains celibate in this life is making himself (or herself) into what he (she) will be after the second coming. It is a practice that anticipates the Resurrection of the Body and life everlasting.

So, in refutation of the above quote, celibacy has been taught and encouraged as a practice since Christ :

[Norseman82]

From New Advent:

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03481a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03481a.htm[/url]

[dandy777]

ok fair enough. I do agree with most of your (in general) arguments and I agree with them on a spiritual level. However, I don't agree with celibacy on a human level. Being calibate and unmarried doesn't mean that makes a priest better or holier. It might help him to submit his desires to his spirit and will for Christ fair enough but even a married man can do that because that is something a person does through divine grace not by his own personal will.

I know most of you won't agree with me and will bring up many quotations and the like to support their theory. I believe that priests should be given the choice of getting married or not. What I am saying is that God gave us our sexual drive and if it is used well within marriage, a married priest can still be as good as an unmarried one. And please don't mention the fact that he has to look after his family and stuff like that cos I know several preachers who are fully dedicated to their ministry and their wives help them and support them a lot and they manage to have strong marriages. It is all a matter of love, faith and determination.

Ok now you are free to bombard me

[Guest JeffCR07]

First, I want to say that I really do understand how you feel and where you are coming from, and I hope you don't feel like I am "bombarding you" with this response.

Actually, my response is with regard to something you said above, that, though well intentioned, is actually incorrect. You said "being celibate and unmarried doesn't mean that makes a priest better or holier" when, in fact, it [i]does[/i] make them better and holier.

Allow me to explain, and forgive me if I use a theological term:

St. Paul is right when he says that the celibate life is better than the married life. This doesn't mean that marriage is bad. Actually, it is just the opposite. Married life is wonderful (as you say) because in many ways marriage is our natural end. God gave us sexuality and made us man and woman for the purpose of being co-creators with him. Literally, the marriage act of procreation is our way of participating in God's very own act of creation.

But celibacy isn't about natural ends, regardless of how beautiful or amazing they are. Celibacy brings us to our [i]supernatural[/i] end. Because there will be no marriage or procreation on the New Earth, the celibate man is actually participating in the reality of eschatalogical man. He is literally [i]becoming what he will be made to be[/i] when Christ comes again.

So, the one is a most holy and blessed natural good, while the other is a most holy and blessed supernatural good. Objectively speaking, a celibate priest [i]is[/i] better and holier than a married one, all other things being equal, because the celibate priest is a more real image of eschatological man.

Now, you would be right to point out that it is not often that "all other things are equal" when comparing two priests, and so the visibility of the difference between a married priest and a celibate one is minimal. Indeed, many married priests are better priests and holier men when all other things are considered. But, with respect to simply the issue of celibacy or marriage, celibacy is the more blessed state, because it brings us to our supernatural, rather than natural, end.

Your Brother In Christ,

Jeff

[thessalonian]

[quote name='thedude' date='Jan 10 2006, 03:31 PM']Interesting fact - St. Peter was married:
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Interesting yes. However, it should be remembered that there is no conclusive evidence that he was married at the time he walked with Christ and there is evidence that his wife had died earlier I believe in the writings of the Fathers. Mark 1 mentions his Mother in Law but not his wife. It also says that she was in the home of Peter and his brother Andrew. If Peter were married at the time it seems to me it would be odd that he would own a house with his brother. There is a verse in 1 Cor 9 I believe that in some translations mentions Peter's wife, Paul saying he has the right to a wife just as Cephas. In other translations it is rendered sister, i.e. housekeeper, kind of like a nun of sorts, taking care of his needs.

It is also my understanding that early on even though some priests were married they still practiced celibacy. Also there were stringent rules about relations before celebrating Mass.

[dandy777]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Jan 11 2006, 05:20 PM']First, I want to say that I really do understand how you feel and where you are coming from, and I hope you don't feel like I am "bombarding you" with this response.

Actually, my response is with regard to something you said above, that, though well intentioned, is actually incorrect. You said "being celibate and unmarried doesn't mean that makes a priest better or holier" when, in fact, it [i]does[/i] make them better and holier.

Allow me to explain, and forgive me if I use a theological term:

St. Paul is right when he says that the celibate life is better than the married life. This doesn't mean that marriage is bad. Actually, it is just the opposite. Married life is wonderful (as you say) because in many ways marriage is our natural end. God gave us sexuality and made us man and woman for the purpose of being co-creators with him. Literally, the marriage act of procreation is our way of participating in God's very own act of creation.

But celibacy isn't about natural ends, regardless of how beautiful or amazing they are. Celibacy brings us to our [i]supernatural[/i] end. Because there will be no marriage or procreation on the New Earth, the celibate man is actually participating in the reality of eschatalogical man. He is literally [i]becoming what he will be made to be[/i] when Christ comes again.

So, the one is a most holy and blessed natural good, while the other is a most holy and blessed supernatural good. Objectively speaking, a celibate priest [i]is[/i] better and holier than a married one, all other things being equal, because the celibate priest is a more real image of eschatological man.

Now, you would be right to point out that it is not often that "all other things are equal" when comparing two priests, and so the visibility of the difference between a married priest and a celibate one is minimal. Indeed, many married priests are better priests and holier men when all other things are considered. But, with respect to simply the issue of celibacy or marriage, celibacy is the more blessed state, because it brings us to our supernatural, rather than natural, end.

Your Brother In Christ,

Jeff
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thanks for your post Jeff. It is really nice and I do understand and respect your trail of thought. It is indeed nice and honourable yet I think that it should never be an imposition but a choice. That is my point. I know many youths who really wish to become priests and they are really devoted and would be great servants of God yet this chastity thing frightens them. God didn't create man to be on his own. Man are social beings and they need to companionship and love. Why is it such far-fetched to believe that there could be great priests who would also have a family? And why is it even more far-fetched to believe that there could be women who are ready to help, support and take this initiative and lifestyle? It is really sad! Many people forget that even men of the cloth are human beings with the same needs (not desires) as everybody else! To deprave them from fullfilling them is inhuman! Sorry if I sound crude but that is what I think.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='dandy777' date='Jan 11 2006, 10:26 AM']thanks for your post Jeff. It is really nice and I do understand and respect your trail of thought. It is indeed nice and honourable yet I think that it should never be an imposition but a choice. That is my point. I know many youths who really wish to become priests and they are really devoted and would be great servants of God yet this chastity thing frightens them. God didn't create man to be on his own. Man are social beings and they need to companionship and love. Why is it such far-fetched to believe that there could be great priests who would also have a family? And why is it even more far-fetched to believe that there could be women who are ready to help, support and take this initiative and lifestyle? It is really sad! Many people forget that even men of the cloth are human beings with the same needs (not desires) as everybody else! To deprave them from fullfilling them is inhuman! Sorry if I sound crude but that is what I think. 
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If I might also add something,

Last night I was speaking with my youth minister and she shares your very same opinion: It should be a choice and not an obligation. I told her that if we view the priesthood as a vocation things might fall into place. Just as religious life is a calling, married life is a calling, and so forth, the priesthood is a calling and a vocation and in the west this calling to the priesthood includes a call to celibacy. God would not call someone to the priesthood at this time if the person were not able to live a holy and chaste life because His Church has made it a discipline for quite some time. It is not as though the Church is imposing some terrible burden on the person, rather it is that the Council Fathers and subsequent popes have decided that celibacy rather than the married state is best suited for the clerical state.

You are correct, man is a social being, but the priest does experience love and compassion. This is of course not in the same manner as the married man, but the priest that learns to live and love celibatly will find just as much fulfillment in his vocation as the married man does. You mentioned that it is cruel to deprive a man of a basic need being fulfilled. I would argue that it is just the opposite. For the man that is truly called to the priesthood will be just as fulfilled in celibacy as the married man is in marriage for he is doing God's will for himself. Both have their own crosses, one cannot deny that, but both also give grace to the person who is properly disposed to them. Both are sacraments and so give grace by their very nature. God would not call a person to the priesthood which mandates celibacy were the person not able to be fulfilled.

It is not that it is far fetched to fathom married priests, they have existed in the past, do now, and most probably will do so in the future. The point is that the Church has found that celibacy is most appropriate for her priests, so much so that she has mandated it for centuries now.

We must also remember that marriage and holy orders are the two sacraments that are ordered towards others. Marriage is for the procreation of the human race and holy orders is so that the sacraments might be brought to the faithful.

[Guest JeffCR07]

thats a great response Paph!

Truly, everything does fall into place when we remember that whatever calling we have, it is a privelage, not a right.

I'm personally discerning the priesthood, and I feel the weight of that sacrifice as much as any other guy my age who thinks he might have a calling. But I also know in my heart that this is something God is asking me to do, and when God asks, we should give ourselves entirely. Whatever I am asked to give up, I do so gladly because it is my Lord who is asking if of me.

No sacrifice is easy, and, to be honest, I think it would be dangerous to return to a married priesthood simply for the sake of reducing the sacrifice that men are making. If you really have a calling, you will make whatever sacrifice is necessary, and if being married is the only factor keeping a man from the priesthood, then I can say with certainty that man does not have a calling.

[Myles Domini]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Jan 11 2006, 06:04 PM']thats a great response Paph!

Truly, everything does fall into place when we remember that whatever calling we have, it is a privelage, not a right.

I'm personally discerning the priesthood, and I feel the weight of that sacrifice as much as any other guy my age who thinks he might have a calling. But I also know in my heart that this is something God is asking me to do, and when God asks, we should give ourselves entirely. Whatever I am asked to give up, I do so gladly because it is my Lord who is asking if of me.

No sacrifice is easy, and, to be honest, I think it would be dangerous to return to a married priesthood simply for the sake of reducing the sacrifice that men are making. If you really have a calling, you will make whatever sacrifice is necessary, and if being married is the only factor keeping a man from the priesthood, then I can say with certainty that man does not have a calling.
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:applause:

Pahpy and Jeff for Church Militant...oh wait, they already are :

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Jan 11 2006, 12:04 PM']I'm personally discerning the priesthood[/quote]Are you really?!
Dude that is awesome. I think that you would make an excellent candidate from what I know of you on phatmass.

[Myles Domini]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Jan 11 2006, 06:10 PM']Are you really?!
  Dude that is awesome. I think that you would make an excellent candidate from what I know of you on phatmass.
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Yeah, Anselmian clergy....things could get interesting

[dandy777]

how old are you jeff, if i may ask?

[Myles Domini]

[quote name='dandy777' date='Jan 11 2006, 06:26 PM']how old are you jeff, if i may ask?
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I'll answer this one for you Jeff. Jeff's my age

[dandy777]

[quote name='Myles' date='Jan 11 2006, 08:30 PM']I'll answer this one for you Jeff. Jeff's my age 
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hehe... ok ... hope you are not a handsome guy ... lol ... so few handsome single ones remain on the market : : : : : :

Joking apart, I am really happy that you feel the calling. I feel a great affection for priests and religious. Have quite a few religious people in my family too and I intercede for them a lot especially for seminarians to strengthen their faith and vocation.

However, when one is still at the beginning of the journey the person is very enthusiastic and zealous about it just like two new lovers who meet for the first times. You get those butterflies feeling in the stomach and everytime you think of your beloved, your hearts beats faster and more forcefully. Even though love deepens, this feeling fades away bit by bit. This also happens to priests and then at that point the burden of being alone with no family is carried along. I am just stating what I heard from various priests and they are really great priests who have a strong calling and do a lot of good.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='dandy777' date='Jan 11 2006, 12:56 PM']hehe... ok ... hope you are not a handsome guy ... lol ... so few handsome single ones remain on the market  :  :  :  :  :  :

Joking apart, I am really happy that you feel the calling. I feel a great affection for priests and religious. Have quite a few religious people in my family too and I intercede for them a lot especially for seminarians to strengthen their faith and vocation.

However, when one is still at the beginning of the journey the person is very enthusiastic and zealous about it just like two new lovers who meet for the first times. You get those butterflies feeling in the stomach and everytime you think of your beloved, your hearts beats faster and more forcefully. Even though love deepens, this feeling fades away bit by bit.  This also happens to priests and then at that point the burden of being alone with no family is carried along. I am just stating what I heard from various priests and they are really great priests who have a strong calling and do a lot of good.
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If God gives the calling he gives the grace to fullfill it. It will be tested along the way just as chastity within marriage will be tested along the way. Your senario proves nothing about the good of celibacy or whether celibacy should be mandatory. To those whom it has been given they need the grace of God to fullfil thier celibate life. If that were not true then men would be doing it on their own and it would not be by the grace of God.

[Paphnutius]

[quote]This also happens to priests and then at that point the burden of being alone with no family is carried along.[/quote]You have an excellent point. The honeymoon phase passes and you are left with reality. It happens. I like to think of it as the cross of the vocation. The married father has the burden or cross of providing for a family of 2-18 people. As thess said, and I said earlier, God calls and supplies the grace. Does it mean that there wont be times of temptation or lonliness? No. As you point out, men have a natural urge for love and family, but what it does mean is that God will make the means possible for the priest to perservere and live a fulfilling and joyful life.

I think that there is an overemphasis on the joys of family life without enough emphasis on the joys of a celibate clerical life. Both callings have their hard times and to expect that putting the two together will eliminate the hardships of the other is unrealistic. I do not believe that you mean exactly that, but it is something to think about.

[dandy777]

hmm... good food for thought Paph! Thanks indeed