The Jews

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

i Need some input on this.

[Krostandt]

What do you mean? Input on what? If you are asking who they are, then Jews were a group that followed the Mosaic Law and were the chosen people by God. However, once the Messiah came and the Jews rejected them, the covenent was ended and the New Covenent was established with the New Israel, the Church. Now, they are a religion that worship according to their ancient beliefs. Although, they have always had a special place, they are still not Christian, and we pray for the day of them to convert.

[Aloysius]

you can hold to the historical and traditional Christian opinion that rabbinical judaism started at the Council of Jamnia represents a break with the religion of the old testament and thus it is not the same religion while also realizing that because they LOOK TO the religion of the old testament they have a very similar religion which thus has many of the same merits of the religion of the old testament.

thus they do believe in some things that are revealed truths, but those truths weren't revealed through rabbinical judaism they were revealed through pre-Christian divine revelation in the Old Covenant.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

Could one say there relegion is evil becasue of what the Talmud says about Non-Jews?

[Krostandt]

[quote]Could one say there relegion is evil becasue of what the Talmud says about Non-Jews?[/quote]
It is never our place to say that one religion is evil or another is not. We cannot know, and we should not risk calling evil, which may be graced by God, even if it's externally.

However, we can definitly say modern Jews are wrong. They do not just hold to heresies, but hold to wrong belief. And this we can say.

It is a fine line, but a very important one.

[PadreSantiago]

BUT there is not a fine line between belief and fact so you cannot say whose beliefs are wrong buddy.

[Krostandt]

Of course you can as a Christian.
I believe that Christ is God and accept the teachings of passed down through Apostolic Tradition. Jews deny this, so therefore they are wrong according to my belief. I'd expect them to say the same thing, and you know what they have.
If you hold a faith, would you not hold it as fact? I hold my beliefs as fact. Just because someone does not aggre with them, does not make my beliefs any less factual.
Furthermore, since this forum comes from a Christian, although Roman Catholic, background, therefore I have enough precedence to call part of Judaism wrong. This forum is based with the basic principles of Christianity being fiat.
And besides, I don't buy into that PC, Pluralism carp. I'll respect your beliefs, I may even admire parts of it, but I'm not going to say you're right.

[Aloysius]

"It is not merely true that a creed unites men. Nay, a difference of creed unites men - so long as it is a clear difference. A boundary unites. Many a magnanimous Moslem and chivalrous Crusader must have been nearer to each other, because they were both dogmatists, than any two agnostics. "I say God is One," and "I say God is One but also Three," that is the beginning of a good quarrelsome, manly friendship." -GK Chesterton

people pretending they don't disagree by differentiating between "belief" and "fact" are really doing quite a disservice to the flavor of human life, friendship, and the brotherhood of men.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jan 25 2006, 11:51 PM']"It is not merely true that a creed unites men. Nay, a difference of creed unites men - so long as it is a clear difference. A boundary unites. Many a magnanimous Moslem and chivalrous Crusader must have been nearer to each other, because they were both dogmatists, than any two agnostics. "I say God is One," and "I say God is One but also Three," that is the beginning of a good quarrelsome, manly friendship." -GK Chesterton
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i love that quote!

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Krostandt' date='Jan 25 2006, 09:23 PM']What do you mean?  Input on what?  If you are asking who they are, then Jews were a group that followed the Mosaic Law and were the chosen people by God.  However, once the Messiah came and the Jews rejected them, the covenent was ended and the New Covenent was established with the New Israel, the Church.  Now, they are a religion that worship according to their ancient beliefs.  Although, they have always had a special place, they are still not Christian, and we pray for the day of them to convert.
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I don't think the Jews' covenant with God ended when the Jews rejected Christ. To me, it doesn't depend on whether anyone accepts God. The New Covenent supercedes the Old Covenant because of its own nature -- Christ's blood on the Cross was the ultimate atonement for our sins. All other sacrifices are null and void except the sacrifice that is made in union with Christs'. Plus, the Old Covenant was only with the Jews and God, whereas the New Covenant was when God drew all nations to Himself.

Catholicism is the most authentic expression of Judaism.

[Myles Domini]

[quote name='Krostandt' date='Jan 26 2006, 03:42 AM']Of course you can as a Christian.
I believe that Christ is God and accept the teachings of passed down through Apostolic Tradition.  Jews deny this, so therefore they are wrong according to my belief.  I'd expect them to say the same thing, and you know what they have.
If you hold a faith, would you not hold it as fact?  I hold my beliefs as fact.  Just because someone does not aggre with them, does not make my beliefs any less factual.
Furthermore, since this forum comes from a Christian, although Roman Catholic, background, therefore I have enough precedence to call part of Judaism wrong.  This forum is based with the basic principles of Christianity being fiat. 
And besides, I don't buy into that PC, Pluralism carp.  I'll respect your beliefs, I may even admire parts of it, but I'm not going to say you're right.
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:applause:

Exactly. I have the absolute right to say someone else's religious beliefs are wrong and if other people think thats arrogant thats really their problem. Truth is one of the most obvious elements of nature, we perceive it every day in our experience of the world around us, to imagine that it doesn't carry over into religion, that reason is somehow suspended once we start thinking about religion inspite of the vying historical claims various religions make is intellectual flabbiness.

I am a Catholic Christian and that means I believe in the truth of Catholicism and will get into apologetic debates with anyone who doesn't believe in the truth of Catholicism. I dont hate non-Catholics but the fact remains I think they're wrong and if I didn't I wouldn't be a real Catholic because the Church does not present itself as a truth but as the truth, the light of the nations and the ark of salvation.

Judaism has much good in it but its obviously lacking the pleroma of Catholic Christianity like all other religions and if I didn't believe that I wouldn't be much of a Catholic. I'm not living under the dictatorship of relativism but under grace.

[Aloysius]

the old covenant certainly did end in the sense that the Jewish people no longer have a special particular covenant apart from and running chronologically parallel to the new covenant. the Jews are invited into the New Covenant in order to fulfill all the aspiritions of the people of the old covenant, but they will never again hold a covenant

not even if Cardinal Kaspar says so. if anyone, even an Apostle himself, preaches a different gospel... well, you know the rest. Ratzinger vs. Kaspar, there's no question, there is no covenant running parallel to the New Covenant. The Gospel is that God has offered a covenant to everyone, without distinction to Jew and Gentile, and that is the only covenant offered to the human race.

[philothea]

[quote name='Myles' date='Jan 26 2006, 12:15 AM']Judaism has much good in it but its obviously lacking the pleroma of Catholic Christianity like all other religions and if I didn't believe that I wouldn't be much of a Catholic. I'm not living under the dictatorship of relativism but under grace.
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Isn't it a little early in the day to be using words like "pleroma"?

(Good morning, Myles )

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jan 26 2006, 02:16 AM']the old covenant certainly did end in the sense that the Jewish people no longer have a special particular covenant apart from and running chronologically parallel to the new covenant.  the Jews are invited into the New Covenant in order to fulfill all the aspiritions of the people of the old covenant, but they will never again hold a covenant

not even if Cardinal Kaspar says so.  if anyone, even an Apostle himself, preaches a different gospel... well, you know the rest.  Ratzinger vs. Kaspar, there's no question, there is no covenant running parallel to the New Covenant.  The Gospel is that God has offered a covenant to everyone, without distinction to Jew and Gentile, and that is the only covenant offered to the human race.
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yes, but it didn't have anything to do with whether the Jews wanted the New Covenant or not.

Obviously the fact that Judaism abandoned the Messiah is an evil thing. However, I would never say that the religion is evil, because they are worshipping God in the way that they know how to. It is up to the Church to lead those who are in error into the light of Truth. My very good friend (who died last year) grew up in a Jewish home where no one was allowed to say the word "Jesus." It was a swear word in their family. He never knew who Jesus really was until very late in his life when he became Catholic. A lot of people in other religions are ignorant because they haven't gotten a clear picture of who Christ is, so we can't blame them for rejecting someone they never met. They are wrong, but ignorant and it is our responsibility to educate the ignorant.

[Myles Domini]

[quote name='philothea' date='Jan 26 2006, 06:19 AM']Isn't it a little early in the day to be using words like "pleroma"?

(Good morning, Myles )
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Its ne'er too early for words like pleroma 'thea.

Good morning to you too

[Aloysius]

the point I was making is that there is no parallel covenant. ignorance can reduce or take away from their culpability in not accepting the new covenant, and right action by the natural law can earn them some extraordinary imperfect membership in the new covenant, but there is no old covenant still in existence.

[desertwoman]

What is it that you don't understand about the Jews? Is it the fact that God told them not to mix with other cultures?

God held the Jews in high regard... they were highly favored in his eyes. Our savior is a Jew, he came unto his own and they accepted him not.

To me we are called to love the people of Israel for we do serve the God of Abraham. They reject Jesus as the Messiah and they are still waiting on him. They just couldn't beleive that Jesus was the Messiah cause they wanted Jesus to do the things that they expected their Messiah to do, but when he came down and taught not according to their predescribed notions, they couldn't beleive that he was the Messiah.

The main thing to convert any Jewish person is to convince them in the Talmud, the Torah that Jesus is the Messiah and this is what many Messianic Jews are doing.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

The Talmud is a racist book made by man and not by God.

[Myles Domini]

EENS regardless of the sometimes disparaging remarks contained within certain Jewish texts e.g. the Babylonian Talmud it is not our place to judge them for it. By the measure we measure to others shall we not also be measured? Your comments right now strike me as being unduly hateful towards the Jews. Christianity isnt about hate. Surah 9:31 onwards makes some pretty harsh remarks about Christians and our clergy but that is no reason to hate Muslims.

Were you merely opposing Rabbinic Judaism on theological points by presenting the coherency of Catholicism against its attacks I wouldn't mind that at all. I have no love for any religion besides Catholicism and am more than willing, as I've expressed, to tell someone to their face that I believe that only the Church possesses the fullness of truth. However, your posts do not strike me as exhibiting much more than anti-Jewish predjudice. Your words seem to contain just as much distaste for Jews as they do Judaism and thats not good.

You said on another thread why support one false religion over another? Well, if you see them as equally fallacious why speak of either? Why start a thread about Judaism? What vested interest in Judaism do you have? Why are you looking for a fight? Because thats how it strikes me. The whole point of this thread appears to be to identify the Jews as the enemy and a focus for ill feeling and malice and I cannot see the need for it.

Edited January 26, 2006 by Myles

[Krostandt]

[quote]The Talmud is a racist book made by man and not by God. [/quote]
So are many Christian documents. Go to New Advent and type in Negro. Read of the Christian Prayers around invasions. Now, yes, we do not accept those as authoritive documents, but my point is you'll find prejudice everywhere, even in Christianity. Therefore, please let me remove the plank from my eye, before I remove the speck from others.
Also, the Talmud, is not something that I really find racist. Bascially, it implies that Judaism and JEws are holy and Goy are not. One's simply the Chosen people. There's nothing wrong with saying that. It's a logical manefestation of their beliefs. If we are to judge their religion right or wrong, let us not use trivial things about their comments of the gentiles, but rather what they have to say about God. God, Ha'Shem, is important. Everything else is secondary.



Besides . . . . we all know for a fact that Texians are the true Chosen People.