being divorced

[thessalonian]

[quote name='musturde' date='Mar 7 2006, 09:50 PM']Okay that makes no sense tho. Sorry if I don't understand this but how on earth can you not be on grounds for annulment if your wife left you and remmarried. That doesn't make sense. If she's cheating on you, that doesn't qualify divorce? Seriously, i think a priest would be OUT OF HIS MIND if he was to say that this isn't on the grounds of annulment... Would these two people really be meant to be in Gods eyes if one of them refuses to stay with the other? Wouldn't that qualify for annulment in itself?  I just can't understand this, can someone explain it. I have a feeling the Church is far more compassionate than this.
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You do not understand anullments. "What GOD has JOINED let NO MAN put asssunder". That even means men and women who get married cannot separate it. Now this joining takes place when the vows are made AT the marriage. However they are only legitimate if both sides do them freely and honestly with the proper intent that the marriage be permanent, that there is no coersion or forcing of the marriage, that both sides are giving themselves solely to one another, and that there is an intent by both partiest to bear children in the marriage. If these conditions are not met then the covenant of marriage, which is above a contract, is not valid. The tribunal does not determine if the marriage is "currently" invalid. It tries to determine if at the time of the marriage the proper conditions existed. Now infidelity or divorce later in the marriage may mean one of two things. The proper formation of the person did not at the time of the marriage allow them to make a valid marriage covenant and so the marriage was invalid or the person fell in to sin. The former was not ever really a marriage, the latter was.

A marriage covenant is as I said like a contract but with even greater responsibility. If one side or another enters in to a contract with certain expectations, i.e. that the other intends to have children for instance and later it is found out there is no such intent (this was the case in my first marriage. My ex told friends of ours she hated kids and never wanted any. She told me she did so that I would marry her) then the covenant was never formed.

Hope that helps.

Blessings

[thessalonian]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='Mar 7 2006, 10:25 PM']If you were to take the quotes by soc, and disregard the CCs teaching and christian norms, much like social norms, I'm not sure those passages say all remarriages are bad. I'm not just talkin about those that happen to be annullable. I mean the fact Jesus said who ever puts away his wife, who ever divorces the spouse is the one who did bad. The one who decided to leave.
But I honestly don't have much of a stand on this. Just thought I'd throw that out there food for thought.
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All marriages that are in fact a covenant, freely entered by both parties with honesty are in fact logically and scripturally bad. See my explanation above. A marriage is a contract with greater responsibility. Logically if the contract is entered under false pretense and deception it was never valid in the first place. This is simple natural law.

[Didacus]

1. I would literally rather die than get divorced.

2. Should my wife leave me; I would not remarry. And that's final.

3. My wife actually shares my opinion, such that if she left me she would not remarry.

4. I admit it would be very difficult for me to live a celibate life.


My wife has an aunt and her husband was a severe acoholic who beat her and her children. For the sake of her children, she left him and I belive it was the right choice. She has been living celibately since leaving her husband for over 30 years and she has not regrets.

Its not to say she didn't want to remarry or date or other. It is that she respected the fact that although her husband is unfaithful and thus she had to leave him, her marriage remained binding before God. (drinking yourself to the point of stupidity and beating your family is a form of unfaithfulness in my opinion and dare anyone to say I'm wrong)

She is an great person, and a joy to speak with. Now that's its been 30 years or so after her leaving her husband she openly talks about it, although I am certain it was not easy at the time and for a long time thereafter. She is an inspiration to me and my wife, not for us to leave each other of course, but to know how important marriage really is and how much we have to be there for each other and to live our vocations to their fullest. Regardless what we choose, God will always be there with us and for us.

[MagiDragon]

I might get remarried if she died . . . but i really doubt it. *grins wryly* 'tis an odd thing, but i'm already loyal to the person i marry, and i'm not even engaged yet!

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='musturde' date='Mar 7 2006, 10:50 PM']Okay that makes no sense tho. Sorry if I don't understand this but how on earth can you not be on grounds for annulment if your wife left you and remmarried. That doesn't make sense. If she's cheating on you, that doesn't qualify divorce? Seriously, i think a priest would be OUT OF HIS MIND if he was to say that this isn't on the grounds of annulment... Would these two people really be meant to be in Gods eyes if one of them refuses to stay with the other? Wouldn't that qualify for annulment in itself?  I just can't understand this, can someone explain it. I have a feeling the Church is far more compassionate than this.
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An annulment is based on the situation at the time of the wedding vows. What happens after that, can be an indication of what could have been wrong at the start of the marriage, but not necessarily sufficient grounds for annulment.

[Catholic Fanatic]

Sojourner and Quietfire must be called out. You have heard the Truth spoken. You have no excuse not to repent. It would be helpful to those of us trying to save your souls if you would recant publically.

Sojourner, you need to stop your encouragement and belief that the remarriage would make you happy. You are aiding in mortal sin and committing it yourself with your belief and aid. Quietfire, you need to do the same with your beliefs, and with your actions. If the anullment stands, so be it. But don't use the wait and see method where you never check as a way to continue in mortal sin. As it is, you are in mortal sin. Stop relations with the man and living a lie. God's sacrament cannot be broken, and He is calling you away from the life of mortal sin that you are living.

Unless you both repent, Christ will say he never knew you. You will be bound up and cast into eternal damnation, where the fires will literally melt your skin and maggots will eat at your eyes. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. You will not be released until you have paid the last penny.

Edited March 9, 2006 by Catholic Fanatic

[Azriel]

Nice, very nice.

BTW - we can't save souls, only God.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Catholic Fanatic' date='Mar 9 2006, 10:43 AM']Sojourner and Quietfire must be called out. You have heard the Truth spoken. You have no excuse not to repent. It would be helpful to those of us trying to save your souls if you would recant publically.

Sojourner, you need to stop your encouragement and belief that the remarriage would make you happy. You are aiding in mortal sin and committing it yourself with your belief and aid. Quietfire, you need to do the same with your beliefs, and with your actions. If the anullment stands, so be it. But don't use the wait and see method where you never check as a way to continue in mortal sin. As it is, you are in mortal sin. Stop relations with the man and living a lie. God's sacrament cannot be broken, and He is calling you away from the life of mortal sin that you  are living.

Unless you both repent, Christ will say he never knew you. You will be bound up and cast into eternal damnation, where the fires will literally melt your skin and maggots will eat at your eyes. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. You will not be released until you have paid the last penny.[right][snapback]907262[/snapback][/right][/quote][quote name='Azriel' date='Mar 9 2006, 10:45 AM']Nice, very nice.

BTW - we can't save souls, only God.[right][snapback]907265[/snapback][/right][/quote]
i echo Azriel. very nice

[MagiDragon]

[quote name='Catholic Fanatic' date='Mar 9 2006, 10:43 AM']Sojourner and Quietfire must be called out. You have heard the Truth spoken. You have no excuse not to repent. It would be helpful to those of us trying to save your souls if you would recant publically.
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Methinks you have good intentions . . . but you're a bit harsh and that's gonna drive people away. I think these two are both honestly trying to come to terms with things. Sometimes that's a slow process. We can't judge the people, only their actions. In this case, we only know of the actions they have revealed to us, and i think they understand the import of those actions.

Be patient, be kind. Without these things, you cannot be a good instrument.

[Theoketos]

Let me put a new prespective on your question Diary... Basically what you are asking is: If you had a vaild marriage, but your spouse refused to acknowledge it, would you commit adultry?

The answer should be no.

Just because one person rejects reality does not mean that every one gets to as well. Further even if everyone rejects reality it does not mean that reality has fanished.

[thessalonian]

[quote]Sojourner and Quietfire must be called out. You have heard the Truth spoken. You have no excuse not to repent. It would be helpful to those of us trying to save your souls if you would recant publically. [/quote]

Called out on what? Quietfire is working toward resolving her situation as best she can. That is commendable and God is patient. As I understand it she was not Catholic when she entered the relationship and perhaps somewhat unknowing. She hasn't given all the details and says she has an option that will allow her not to wait for the anullment. I won't speculate what that is though I see some possibilities. I think as long as she is moving in the right direction we should be gentle.


I had a private discussion with Sojourner which I will not divulge but she perhaps could have expounded a bit on the situation. I don't agree that it is a cause for rejoicing, however there is some reason to hope for ignorance in the case. If she chooses to give you more details she may.

I recommend your prayers for both situations.

Edited March 9, 2006 by thessalonian

[Quietfire]

wow, I leave for a day and I enter what seems to be a born again situation. REPENT or thou shalt not be saved child!!
Ok, a little levity.

Since you (CF) do not know the pertinent details of my situation I understand what you are saying and in fact you are somewhat off here, but I thank you for the sincere sentiment to repent, as I have and am still doing everyday.

To expound on my last post a bit without too much personal info since I really dont think that this is the best place, being Dairy's poll thread and all, I will try to illuminate the situation for you. Again, I am leaving out alot of detail since it would then turn into my conversion story and thats not what this is in reference to.

[i]I CAN be received in the Church but NOT partake in Holy Communion as of right now[/i], because of my husband's situation. Yes, he is divorced. No, she (his ex) never had any intention of a lasting marriage, even when she was walking down the aisle and Yes, she walked out and persued a divorce 7 weeks after saying I do. My husband never retained a lawyer because he opposed the divorce. She went through with it anyway. He [u]can[/u] persue an annulment, (he has grounds) but has not done so as of yet. (but Im praying) for reasons that are none of your business (like I said, he has issues too and Im not airing his laundry here since I have no right to do so)
Was I aware of "marrying a married man" or that I was a partner of mortal sin when when I walked down the aisle to exchange vows with the man of my dreams? No.

Am I Catholic? Yes. I have for 2 years made it clear that I was baptised Catholic...but I was not raised in any particular faith so I went to church around the corner from my home...dont know the denomination, and also attended [i]any[/i] church with [i]any[/i] friend who invited me (which is alot of church's) Because of that, I have always thought of myself simply as a Christian, never understanding that there were different 'facets' that went with the different names of Protestantism.

But, after being on this board for a short while, it was made clear to me that I am, in fact, Catholic..because of my baptism but also because of desire. I came here with an open mind and heart and never looked back. I was already interested in the Church before I got here, but PM has given me more information and knowledge of the Church and therfore more profound understanding of God than any single book I could have read. And although I had planned on waiting a while longer; God. who in his infinite mercy, patience and love would have nothing of it and I suddenly found myself talking to a priest about how quickly I could start RCIA to be received. I could go on but that is the jist of it.

Ok, back on subject....

[i]I can[/i], (according to the Sister who is preparing me to be recieved), [i]not only be received but also receive Holy Communion[/i] without waiting for my husband to persue an annulment by way of another process. *I honestly cannot remember what she called it but basically it is this...my marriage would be blessed by the Church through [i]me[/i] which in turn would allow me to receive Holy Communion. My husband, on the other hand, still cannot receive Holy Communion until he receives an annulment.* I would not be in mortal sin and because I fill the certain conditions for this process, it has been made available to me.

In the end you must remember one very important thing, which I have learned to understand myself.
The Church's main goal is to bring souls to Christ. She will not profane God in that process. She will though, do all that is possible for a repentent soul to become one with the body of Christ , the Church, if that person honestly and humbly seeks it. That is her mission.
The Church has diened(said) that I am ready to be received and, if I choose to, may receive Holy Communion without my husband having an annulment as explained above.

I, on the other hand, have asked to go through RCIA. Sister feels that I may not really need it, but I still wish to at least start it to prepare myself. I will not go into the 'why' at this time. I have no doubts, if that is a concern. Sister is aware of my intentions and she has been most helpful, and I am grateful that God has placed her near me on my path. She has also told me that she will do all that she can to help me.

Class begins in fall but I will be sitting in with the current class as of this Sunday, and after that class ends at Pentacost I will sit down again with Sister Mary.

I hope this has been of some help.

Pax

[thessalonian]

I have to say QF that I find it very odd that you can have a marriage blessed through one partner and that it can be blessed without the husband recieving an anullment. I agree that there is cause for the anullment if his ex divorced after 7 weeks but this does not sound right at all to me. Marriage is where a man and a woman become one. Currently you have no marriage and you can't make a half a marriage by having one side of the equation blessed. I have to say the dear sister is wrong in what she is planning for you. Sorry. I must say that you are somewhat vulnerable to being led down the wrong path in this situation because you so badly want to be in full communion with Church. I continue to keep you in my prayers.

Edited March 9, 2006 by thessalonian

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Quietfire' date='Mar 9 2006, 02:10 PM'][i]I can[/i], (according to the Sister who is preparing me to be recieved),  [i]not only be received but also receive Holy Communion[/i] without waiting for my husband to persue an annulment by way of another process.  *I honestly cannot remember what she called it but basically it is this...my marriage would be blessed by the Church through [i]me[/i] which in turn would allow me to receive Holy Communion.  My husband, on the other hand, still cannot receive Holy Communion until he receives an annulment.*  I would not be in mortal sin and because I fill the certain conditions for this process, it has been made available to me. [right][snapback]907395[/snapback][/right]
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[i]Please[/i] doublecheck this point with another priest, preferably one on this board like FrPontifex or Cappie. This does not sound right. The way I remember it, if he is not in a sacramental marriage to you, neither are you in one to him. Either both parties are in a sacramental marriage or neither are, as far as I am aware, but I will stand corrected if church authorities correct me.

[Quietfire]

I will double check.
I will get back to you on this.

Thank you.

[the flutehonker]

eek! I have so much to learn. So far this post has made me extremely scared of ever getting married.

[jmjtina]

Although every case is different, after investigation, if there are no grounds for an annullment, then you could NOT remarry.

You cannot undo a sacrament.

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote name='Amator Veritatis' date='Mar 7 2006, 06:14 PM']I am not aware of the divorce laws in America or anywhere else for that matter, but as far as I understand, the party against which a suit of divorce has been brought is required at least to consent to the divorce. Am I correct?
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I'm not so sure about that. It might vary from state to state, but the situation with Bud and Bai Macfarlane touches upon this very issue concerning divorce procedures in Ohio, and may be the case in many places where the couple is put on a fast track to divorce, even if one spouse doesn't want it. She is now campaigning for the laws to be reformed. I don't know what the situation is with them personally, and it's probably best not to speculate about what went on to cause the marriage crisis in the first place. But the no-fault divorce laws certainly are something worth calling into question.

[Peccator]

Reading all this...I'm glad I'm not getting married ...(no disrespect meant off course) Hope verything works out QF.

Edited March 10, 2006 by Peccator

[ruso]

Slight subject.
My mother this married with a divorced man, the truth is that they are happy and I do not want to judge them.
The eclesial divorce has many failures, an addict friend to the gambling in therapy, say everything to your wife before the wedding and
he not was playing during its marriage, when separating the Church granted her the divorce to him alleging that he was a compulsive gambler.
I know abused women without possibility of obtaining the divorce, by the sight the Church does not give many possibilities to those who are mistaken of pair.
Although the doctrine is clear, it has many failures applied to the real life.