Protestant "fathers"

[dspen2005]

we, as Catholics should know where the weaknesses are in Prot theology without having a detailed understanding. Prots begin with a false anthropology, for example, and if we can discuss that issue, alone, many of the weakness will flesh themselves out.... you have your style and I have mine.... i suppose we can leave it at that, Brother

[N/A Gone]

Brother Adam, I am very impressed with your tone on this discussion.

Dspen, I am sad by your tone in this talk.

The issue with protestant ecumenism is that we are basically telling them to abandon the faith that they have, the saving faith they have in christ and borg themselves. This is naive and not in the spirit of Ut Unum Sint. What we need to do is have an understanding of the processes of their faith and show them how the catholic church is the fulfillment of that faith. It is the progression of it. Anytime I bring up ecumenism dialogue this issue needs to be understood. Well edcucated protestants will not abandon the faith that they have. Lil shock messages will only get the uneducated sheep that didnt bother understanding their faith and will just provide the same for us. I am a semister away from an undergrad in theology at a very well respected protestant bible college. The whole idea of "their theology is flawed, and weak and not worth knowing" is an insult to your ability to understand our seperated brothers in the spirit we are called to do.

Brother Adam, as a fellow convert-revert (from a baptist background non the less) I would do anything I can to help you with this. I have an extensive library with this purpose in mind.

Anything from Karl Barth is a good start for systematition type of theology. It is pseudo calvinist to say the least, but it will help

Letters from a skeptic by Dr. Greg Boyd is a good evangelical overview. It is basic, but the point of evangelical theology is that anyone can share the simplistics of it. I have a long personal relationship with Boyd. So i can credit this book.
For pneumatolgy he writes very good books, just do a search for him.

JP Moreland is a good writer.

CS lewis mere christianty is the main guy protestants will site for their book.

Alot of protestant theology is developed by reading other theologians and filtering it thru their own reasoning and understanding of scripture. Almost a development from the negative.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

why would you read protestant books?

Just throw them into the fire where they belong.

this is from the catechism of Pius X:

32 Q: What should a Christian do who has been given a Bible by a Protestant or by an agent of the Protestants?

A: A Christian to whom a Bible has been offered by a Protestant or an agent of the Protestants should reject it with disgust, because it is forbidden by the Church. If it was accepted by inadvertence, it must be burnt as soon as possible or handed in to the Parish Priest.

33 Q: Why does the Church forbid Protestant Bibles?

A: The Church forbids Protestant Bibles because, either they have been altered and contain errors, or not having her approbation and footnotes explaining the obscure meanings, they may be harmful to the Faith. It is for that same reason that the Church even forbids translations of the Holy Scriptures already approved by her which have been reprinted without the footnotes approved by her.

[N/A Gone]

[quote][i]one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."[/i][/quote]

And that one statement allows us to dialog. Without that, we are
reduced to what we have been doing for 500 years - trying to
evangelize the other.

[quote]..."Christ calls all his disciples to unity"

Our desire should be to renew this call today. The courageous witness of so many martyrs of our century give vigor to the call for unity and reminds us of our duty to listen to and put into practice this calling. These Brothers and sisters or ours, united in the selfless offering of their lives for the Kingdom of God, are the most powerful proff that every factor of division can be transcended and overcome in the total gift of self for the sake of the gospel.believers united in following in the footsteps of the martyrs cannot remain divided. If they wish truly and effectively to oppose the world's tendency to reduce to powerlessness the mystery of redemption, they must profess together the same truth about the cross. The anti-christian outlook seeks to minimize the cross, to empty it of its meaning, and to deny that in it man has the source of his new life. It claims that the cross is unable to provide either hope or vision. Man, it says, is nothing but an earthly being, who must live as if God does not exist. No one is unaware of the challenge which all this poses to believers. they cannot fail to meet this challenge, indeed how could
they refuse to do everything possible, with God's help to break downthe walls of division and distrust, to overcome obstacles and prejudices which thwartthe proclaimation of the Gospel of salvation in the cross of Jesus, the one redeemer of man, of every individual? I thank the lord that he has led us to make progress along the path of unity and communion between Christians, a path difficult but so full of joy. Interconfessional dialogues at the theological level have produced positive and tangible results: this encourages us to move forward. Never the less, besides the doctrinal differences needing to be resolved, christians cannot underestimate thew burden of long-standing misgivings inherited from the past, and of mutual misunderstandings and prejudices. complacncy, indifference and insufficient knowledge of one another often make this situation worse. Consequently, the commitment to ecumenism must be based upon the conversion of hearts and upon prayer, which will lead to the necessary purification of past memories. With the grace of the holy spirit, the lord's disciples, inspired by love, by the power of the
truth and by a sincere desire for mutual forgiveness and reconciliation, are called to re-examine together their painful past and the hurt which that past regrettably continues to provoke even today. All together, they are invited by the ever fresh power of the gospel to acknowledge with sincere and total objectivity the mistakes made and the contingent factors at work at the origins of their deplorable divisions. what is needed is a clam, clearsightful and truthful vision of things, a vision enlivened by divine mercy and capable of freeing people's minds and of inspiring in everyone a renewed willingness, precisely with a view to proclaiming the gospel to the men and women of
every tribe and nation

-Ut Unum Sint, 1-2[/quote]

[jswranch]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Mar 28 2006, 01:50 PM']was he [Luther the Poo flinger] a monkey?
[right][snapback]925533[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Allow me to put a plug in again for "Triumph:..." by HW Crocker III. He goes to lengths to cite Luther's writtings on this topic. He also quotes Luther's discreet endorsement of polygamy. Crocker writes how Luther claimed the idea of Sola Fide came to him while he was in the tower on the privy and hit him like a thuner bolt.

[dspen2005]

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Mar 28 2006, 11:03 PM']Brother Adam, I am very impressed with your tone on this discussion.

Dspen, I am sad by your tone in this talk.

The issue with protestant ecumenism is that we are basically telling them to abandon the faith that they have, the saving faith they have in christ and borg themselves. This is naive and not in the spirit of Ut Unum Sint. What we need to do is have an understanding of the processes of their faith and show them how the catholic church is the fulfillment of that faith. It is the progression of it. Anytime I bring up ecumenism dialogue this issue needs to be understood. Well edcucated protestants will not abandon the faith that they have. Lil shock messages will only get the uneducated sheep that didnt bother understanding their faith and will just provide the same for us. I am a semister away from an undergrad in theology at a very well respected protestant bible college. The whole idea of "their theology is flawed, and weak and not worth knowing" is an insult to your ability to understand our seperated brothers in the spirit we are called to do.

Brother Adam, as a fellow convert-revert (from a baptist background non the less) I would do anything I can to help you with this. I have an extensive library with this purpose in mind.

Anything from Karl Barth is a good start for systematition type of theology. It is pseudo calvinist to say the least, but it will help

Letters from a skeptic by Dr. Greg Boyd is a good evangelical overview. It is basic, but the point of evangelical theology is that anyone can share the simplistics of it. I have a long personal relationship with Boyd. So i can credit this book.
For pneumatolgy he writes very good books, just do a search for him.

JP Moreland is a good writer.

CS lewis mere christianty is the main guy protestants will site for their book.

Alot of protestant theology is developed by reading other theologians and filtering it thru their own reasoning and understanding of scripture. Almost a development from the negative.
[right][snapback]926368[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

[Paladin]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Mar 28 2006, 11:09 PM']why would you read protestant books?

Just throw them into the fire where they belong.

this is from the catechism of  Pius X:

    32 Q: What should a Christian do who has been given a Bible by a Protestant or by an agent of the Protestants?

    A: A Christian to whom a Bible has been offered by a Protestant or an agent of the Protestants should reject it with disgust, because it is forbidden by the Church. If it was accepted by inadvertence, it must be burnt as soon as possible or handed in to the Parish Priest.

    33 Q: Why does the Church forbid Protestant Bibles?

    A: The Church forbids Protestant Bibles because, either they have been altered and contain errors, or not having her approbation and footnotes explaining the obscure meanings, they may be harmful to the Faith. It is for that same reason that the Church even forbids translations of the Holy Scriptures already approved by her which have been reprinted without the footnotes approved by her.
[right][snapback]926380[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
The Church no longer bans any books. And, many modern translations (tacky as they can be) are accepted by both the Catholic Church and Protestants, and many are even coming back to the Deuterocanonicals. Besides, I don't care where a particular translation of the Bible is from, I'm not going to burn it because it's still the Holy Scriptures.

If you just tell a Protestant, "The Church is right, heretic," they will walk away and never get a chance to experience the fullness of the Faith because you insulted them. This approach lacks Christian charity. Understand their faith background so you can better persuade them into seeking fullness with the See of Peter.

It really isn't even a matter of telling them they're wrong, because in many cases they're right: they accept the divinity of Jesus, the necessity of Baptism, the Holy Trinity, the need to evangelize. Heck, most do the evangelization thing far better than your average Catholic. By simply rejecting everything they believe, you will embolden them and cause them to turn more hearts away from the Catholic Church. That does no one a favor. And if you believe in the validity of Baptism, most Protestants are members of the Church because they received a valid (though illicit) Baptism. It's just a matter of convincing them of the rest of the Church's doctrines and sacraments. So if a Protestant hands you a book on their faith, read it so you can better be prepared to convert them.

Edited March 30, 2006 by Paladin

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 28 2006, 02:52 PM'] That's like saying "We are going to discuss diplomatic relations with China" and no nothing about Communionism.
[right][snapback]925536[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Excellent point and I agree wholeheartedly. But I think you've been studying too hard. Though the idea of Communionism does sound lovely. Wouldn't it be great if the world were full of Communionists?

[Sojourner]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Mar 30 2006, 10:26 AM']Excellent point and I agree wholeheartedly. But I think you've been studying too hard. Though the idea of Communionism does sound lovely. Wouldn't it be great if the world were full of Communionists?
[right][snapback]928232[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
I'm a Communionist. Hardcore.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Mar 30 2006, 09:26 AM']Excellent point and I agree wholeheartedly. But I think you've been studying too hard. Though the idea of Communionism does sound lovely. Wouldn't it be great if the world were full of Communionists?
[right][snapback]928232[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

I'm not sure I understand your post.

To me, Catholicism does not live inside a vacuum, oblivous to what takes place outside its family. In fact, most heresies begin from within. If we refuse to listen to other viewpoints beyond our own, why should others then not refuse to listen to our message of hope and redemption? If I say to a Calvinist "I will preach Catholicism to you, but you had dare not try to tell me what it is you believe" it would be absurd for the Calvinist to even listen to me for a minute.

Okay, I see, I made an error in spelling. I actually had thought I corrected it immediately after posting, but apparently the edit did not take.

Edited March 30, 2006 by Brother Adam

[dspen2005]

[quote name='Paladin' date='Mar 30 2006, 08:10 AM']If you just tell a Protestant, "The Church is right, heretic," they will walk away and never get a chance to experience the fullness of the Faith because you insulted them.  This approach lacks Christian charity.
[right][snapback]928198[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

no one is saying this.... do we need to spell it out, AGAIN??!?

[Cow of Shame]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Mar 30 2006, 10:41 AM']I'm a Communionist. Hardcore.
[right][snapback]928250[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

I really didn't want to know your pr0n preferences.....

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 30 2006, 09:41 AM']I'm not sure I understand your post.

To me, Catholicism does not live inside a vacuum, oblivous to what takes place outside its family. In fact, most heresies begin from within. If we refuse to listen to other viewpoints beyond our own, why should others then not refuse to listen to our message of hope and redemption? If I say to a Calvinist "I will preach Catholicism to you, but you had dare not try to tell me what it is you believe" it would be absurd for the Calvinist to even listen to me for a minute.

Okay, I see, I made an error in spelling. I actually had thought I corrected it immediately after posting, but apparently the edit did not take.
[right][snapback]928251[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
It was just a little joke. I said you must be studying too hard because your fingers are obviously used to typing "communion" quite often. I misspell "rosary" just about every time (including just now) because it's too close to my daughter's name. It was just playful. I think the idea of being a communionist is fantastic-- even if it wasn't your intention. If your typo had made a word that had no actual meaning, I wouldn't have said anything.

But back to the topic. I think you are right. When discussing ideas it's important to know what the other guy is thinking. Especially when words are defined differently.