Help From Cam

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='Ora et Labora' date='Mar 31 2006, 10:46 PM']lol Sam and Brendan, you two are so much alike. lol But it seems that Brendan is more decided in what he believes...

Oh, sorry. I'm just speaking my mind.
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you should come to fisheaters. indultarians are welcome.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Mar 31 2006, 10:44 PM']this is what cmotherofpirl said.

so i can not speak openly here.
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This does not contradict what I have already said. You can openly discuss without bad mouthing the Pope or the Church.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='Mar 31 2006, 10:53 PM']This does not contradict what I have already said. You can openly discuss without bad mouthing the Pope or the Church.
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well than i obviously can not openly discuss it.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Mar 31 2006, 10:54 PM']well than i obviously can not openly discuss it.
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Well, honestly, that is your problem then. I do not understand you, and I give up trying to.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='Mar 31 2006, 10:59 PM']Well, honestly, that is your problem then. I do not understand you, and I give up trying to.
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whatever dude. you obviously do not want to talk about it.

[rkwright]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Mar 31 2006, 11:03 PM']whatever dude. you obviously do not want to talk about it.
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you should be thankful you have so many patient people that are trying very hard to lead you out of your schism.

I'm extremely impressed by the patience of many like fidei and Cam in handling your issues. If I had half of what they have I'd be a much better person...

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

"my issues"

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Mar 31 2006, 10:54 PM']well than i obviously can not openly discuss it.
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You are right. Thank you for obeying the guidelines

Catholic vs Catholic Debate
A post or comment that results in doctrinal debates that might cause scandal among the faithful. *Effective immediately, any negative criticism of the current Magisterium will result in deletion, and a warning from the moderators. This includes but is not limited to criticism of the Novus Ordo mass and/or our Holy Father.

[ReinnieR]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Mar 31 2006, 10:03 PM']whatever dude. you obviously do not want to talk about it.
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Sam you do realize by bad mouthing the Vicar of Christ and the Holy Mother Church, you are offending a lot of people. nobody is telling tyou to STFU but phatmass has rules [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?act=boardrules"]phorum guidelines[/url]

[Resurrexi]

In the post that started this thread, I asked certain types of people not to intrude on this forum, I will repeat myself. Manifistations of liberalism and anti-TLMism (aka Cmom, rkwright) please do not intrude on this thread!

Is it incorrect to say that religious freedom is wrong?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='StThomasMore' date='Apr 1 2006, 10:58 AM']In the post that started this thread, I asked certain types of people not to intrude on this forum, I will repeat myself. Manifistations of liberalism and anti-TLMism (aka Cmom, rkwright) please do not intrude on this thread!

Is it incorrect to say that religious freedom is wrong?
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Insulting me doesn't make me go away. And to think I congratulated you for returning to the Church. What was I thinking.....
I am not a liberal. I dislike trad thinking because the have the fullness of the Catholic faith in their hands, and foolishly throw it away, putting their own opinions above the Magisterium.

God has given use free will, so why wouldn't we have the choice to choose our beliefs according to our conscience?

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='StThomasMore' date='Apr 1 2006, 10:58 AM']Is it incorrect to say that religious freedom is wrong?
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Yes and no.

Yes if you are refering to the way the Church understands it. Religious freedom is necesary so that no person is forced into one religion or another. What that means for the Church is that people must be free to choose the Catholic Faith. Religious freedom isnt saying "okay, choose whatever religion you want, since they are all the same", but rather that people must be free to choose to be catholic, and have a true conversion, rather than being forced to be Catholic, and then falling into hatred because of it. This also means that people should not be forced into false religions simply because it is a state religion.

False religious freedom is the notion that all religions are true. This is a heretical belief, and indifferentism. The Church does not teach this.

[Ora et Labora]

[quote name='brendan1104' date='Mar 31 2006, 09:50 PM']Whaddya mean? I'm not going to SSPX anymore.
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No, just the way you argue. lol Ya, I'm so proud of you!

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='Ora et Labora' date='Apr 1 2006, 11:14 AM']No, just the way you argue. lol Ya, I'm so proud of you! 


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brendan is a much better debater then myself. we do not argue the same at all.

[Resurrexi]

What about this type of religious freedom:

Catholicism is the state religion. Other religions are not allowed to proclaim their religion or worship in public. Noone is allowed to say anything in public contrary against what the Church teaches. No Non-Catholic is allowed to be a noble. Would that be the kind of religions freedom the Church approves?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='StThomasMore' date='Apr 1 2006, 11:15 AM']What about this type of religious freedom:

Catholicism is the state religion. Other religions are not allowed to proclaim their religion or worship in public. No one is allowed to say anything in public contrary against what the Church teaches. No Non-Catholic is allowed to be a noble. Would that be the kind of religions freedom the Church approves?
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This is exactly what happens in Muslims countries, and the Church condemns that.

[Resurrexi]

I am ignoring cMom's replies...

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Apr 1 2006, 11:18 AM']This is exactly what happens in Muslims countries, and the Church condemns that.
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the only difference bieng we are the true church, and moslems are infedels

that seems to be an important detail you missed.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='StThomasMore' date='Apr 1 2006, 11:15 AM']What about this type of religious freedom:

Catholicism is the state religion. Other religions are not allowed to proclaim their religion or worship in public. Noone is allowed to say anything in public contrary against what the Church teaches. No Non-Catholic is allowed to be a noble. Would that be the kind of religions freedom the Church approves?
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I will let someone else answer more indepth, however, this situation no longer exists, so that is part of the reason the Church clarified its teaching on Religious freedom. In this day and age, most countries are either democracies or states with religions other than Catholicism. So, the Church needed to remind everyone that in these situations, so that people may come to the Church, they must have to freedom of religion, so that they can choose to be Catholic, rather than being forced to be a Hindu or a Muslim.

Here is what Dignitatis Humanae says about Religious Freedom:

[quote]"1. .... This Vatican Council likewise professes its belief that it is upon the human conscience that these obligations fall and exert their binding force. [b]The truth cannot impose itself except by virtue of its own truth, as it makes its entrance into the mind at once quietly and with power.[/b]

Religious freedom, in turn, which men demand as necessary to fulfill their duty to worship God, [b]has to do with immunity from coercion in civil society. Therefore it leaves untouched traditional Catholic doctrine on the moral duty of men and societies toward the true religion and toward the one Church of Christ.[/b]

Over and above all this, the council intends to develop the doctrine of recent popes on the inviolable rights of the human person and the constitutional order of society.

2. This Vatican Council declares that the human person has a right to religious freedom. [b]This freedom means that all men are to be immune from coercion on the part of individuals or of social groups and of any human power, in such wise that no one is to be forced to act in a manner contrary to his own beliefs, whether privately or publicly, whether alone or in association with others, within due limits[/b]."[/quote]

The last part addresses the fact that too often, States will impose a belief on the people, and make them believe it. An example of this is an Islamic state, where Christians are not allowed to practice their belief.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Apr 1 2006, 11:20 AM']the only difference bieng we are the true church, and moslems are infedels

that seems to be an important detail you missed.
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The principle is the same. You cannot force belief on someone.