Anthony Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 I am really getting tired of the constant debating between Catholics who attend the traditional Latin Mass and the Novos Ordo Mass. Both are accepted by Rome. Please, let's not act as though there is a separation because if we were to act as though either celebration of the Mass was wrong, then we would be causing more of a separation, just as did our protestant brothers and sisters did during the Reformation period. We are One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church! Also, people constantly talk about how they went to the indult Mass. In other words people, you went to Mass regardless of whether it was said in English or in Latin or whether it was NO or TLM. If you like the traditional Mass, great! I do too, but my parish that I go to is NO, but that's okay. I love the Church regardless. Anyone is free to debate with me, but I don't care because I feel that there is now a separation between the NO and TLM which should never happen because both are still accepted and we are still members of the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
MichaelFilo Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 There is a very real difference, and it is most noticable in the crowd who goes to the TLM, and then that which goes to the NO. You do not have to hate the current church to be able to see which group is the one with faith to move mountains and which one is part of this world. However, the uniting factor, the Eucharist, is what ties it all together. Remember, there is no seperation as long as there is the Eucharist (licit and valid). God bless, Mikey
qfnol31 Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 17 2006, 06:54 PM']amusing answer. [right][snapback]951327[/snapback][/right] [/quote] How so?
dspen2005 Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 [quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Apr 17 2006, 06:31 PM']There is a very real difference, and it is most noticable in the crowd who goes to the TLM, and then that which goes to the NO. You do not have to hate the current church to be able to see which group is the one with faith to move mountains and which one is part of this world. However, the uniting factor, the Eucharist, is what ties it all together. Remember, there is no seperation as long as there is the Eucharist (licit and valid). God bless, Mikey [right][snapback]951295[/snapback][/right] [/quote] so, which group is the one with faith that can move mountains??
MichaelFilo Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 You wouldn't know, and I shouldn't answer. I speak from limited personal experience, and you may disregard all but the Eucharist part, because that is a Truth. Jesus unites us, and it is in the Eucharist in which it is most visable. God bless, Mikey
dspen2005 Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 [quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Apr 17 2006, 07:19 PM']You wouldn't know, and I shouldn't answer. I speak from limited personal experience, and you may disregard all but the Eucharist part, because that is a Truth. Jesus unites us, and it is in the Eucharist in which it is most visable. God bless, Mikey [right][snapback]951354[/snapback][/right] [/quote] you also shouldn't have said such, if you were going to refuse to explain yourself.
jasJis Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 It's amusing because it's childish, devisive, judgemental, stereotypical, and really quite common in the 'catholic' church. It's always easier to be reassured you're going to heaven if you can point to somebody that you're pretty sure isn't.
MichaelFilo Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 You really did jump ship. [mod] no name calling please[/mod] Anywho, validate what you just said, please JasJis, since my assurance of going to heaven has been, I'd say unfortunaltly never existed. I'm not sure I'm going to heaven, simply that I believe in one's existance. And as for what I said, if it means I have to recant what I said, then I shall say it quite plainly, the faith I see in the Traditional Latin Mass parishoners is much greater than that in those who go to the Novus Ordo, both said by the same holy priest, who says both beautifully, and I believe is the best envisionment of what I want to become as a priest. The easiest difference, in the Novus Ordo, I see people chewing gum and wearing short skirts, in the TLM I see women with their heads covered (as are some in the NO, do not get me wrong) and dressed modestly. One woman was explaining to her child what was going on in the Mass, trying to raise him in Truth, instead of letting the little fluffy air extraction run around and be loud. Oh, and the family size count is also much closer to that of the "Go forth and multiply" numbering at the TLM. That is what I call some signs of the more faithful bunch. God bless, Mikey
jasJis Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 [quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Apr 17 2006, 06:36 PM']You really did jump ship. Anywho, validate what you just said, please JasJis, since my assurance of going to heaven has been, I'd say unfortunaltly never existed. I'm not sure I'm going to heaven, simply that I believe in one's existance. And as for what I said, if it means I have to recant what I said, then I shall say it quite plainly, the faith I see in the Traditional Latin Mass parishoners is much greater than that in those who go to the Novus Ordo, both said by the same holy priest, who says both beautifully, and I believe is the best envisionment of what I want to become as a priest. The easiest difference, in the Novus Ordo, I see people chewing gum and wearing short skirts, in the TLM I see women with their heads covered (as are some in the NO, do not get me wrong) and dressed modestly. One woman was explaining to her child what was going on in the Mass, trying to raise him in Truth, instead of letting the little fluffy air extraction run around and be loud. Oh, and the family size count is also much closer to that of the "Go forth and multiply" numbering at the TLM. That is what I call some signs of the more faithful bunch. God bless, Mikey [right][snapback]951382[/snapback][/right] [/quote]hee-haw. I still got a sense of humour. : TLM seems to be following the 'rules' better than the NO crowd. Yes? If a Baptist can get to heaven, are some things more of a burden than is necessary? Have rules and judgements gotten in the way of what the Eucharist is supposed to be to/for you and for the 'worshiping community'?
MichaelFilo Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 It is a joy to suffer with the Lord, and the cross is my joy. Chew on that. If all we shot for was the minimum, my good man, then we really wouldn't ever make it, because to be on fire for Christ is to, essentially, try for the maximum. No amount of empty rituals will save me, or you. God bless, Mikey (Mods, he quoted me, so you may want to edit that, although, it was all in good fun, although, I forgot that lighthearted curse words weren't appreciated here).
Azriel Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 Oh I appreciate a lighthearted curse word....unfortunately, if we aren't consistent people get crabby. Thanks for the heads up.
Anthony Posted April 18, 2006 Author Posted April 18, 2006 [quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Apr 17 2006, 07:36 PM']You really did jump ship. [mod] no name calling please[/mod] Anywho, validate what you just said, please JasJis, since my assurance of going to heaven has been, I'd say unfortunaltly never existed. I'm not sure I'm going to heaven, simply that I believe in one's existance. And as for what I said, if it means I have to recant what I said, then I shall say it quite plainly, the faith I see in the Traditional Latin Mass parishoners is much greater than that in those who go to the Novus Ordo, both said by the same holy priest, who says both beautifully, and I believe is the best envisionment of what I want to become as a priest. The easiest difference, in the Novus Ordo, I see people chewing gum and wearing short skirts, in the TLM I see women with their heads covered (as are some in the NO, do not get me wrong) and dressed modestly. One woman was explaining to her child what was going on in the Mass, trying to raise him in Truth, instead of letting the little fluffy air extraction run around and be loud. Oh, and the family size count is also much closer to that of the "Go forth and multiply" numbering at the TLM. That is what I call some signs of the more faithful bunch. God bless, Mikey [right][snapback]951382[/snapback][/right] [/quote] However, you cannot judge with absolute certainty that all who attend the Novos Ordo Mass are like that you said. That isn't (or it shouldn't) be the reason why there is so much hostility between those who go to the Tridentine Mass and those who go to the Novos Ordo Mass. My point is that there is so many debates between people who go to the Novos Ordo and people who go to the Tridentine Mass. There should never be a debate like this because we believe the same thing and the Mass is still the Mass whether it is celebrated in Latin, Spanish, or English and whether it is the Novos Ordo Mass or the Tridentine Mass. Point is, we are all Catholic. Let's not debate with one another over how the Mass is said. I for crying out loud people, stop referring to other Catholics as "Neo-Catholics" and "Rad-Trad Catholics" or what ever the term is. Name calling does not accomplish anything except to drive a wedge between the Church's members. We will always be united by the Eucharist and we will always be One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Let us love one another and act as though we do. Let us pray that those who have separated from the One true Church return to Rome.
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 there is one church. But the current Pope and many bishops have fallen away. In all reality, Trads and Novus Ordinarians are members of 2 different relegions.
MichaelFilo Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 Well EENS, if you think he's fallen away, i think you need to pull your breeches up, and go be in schism, cause that was a whorishly mistaken comment. Regardless, I'd like to see some proof (one please) of your accusation. Anywho, is there a real difference? Yes. We are two different camps, vying for the same Church. Who will win? God. Guess what it's HIS Church, not ours. However, if you think thats a small reason, then I wish you would know what it is like to be rejected the Eucharist for wanting to show devotion to our Lord, or having a priest watch people chew gum in one of the churches built in the Novus Ordo tradition, like gigantic theatres, all circular, and then see them receive the Eucharist. It is a burden on my heart. It is much worse when yout alk to them about faith.. all they know is doing good works, faith is, "I believe in Jesus" and it stops there. They are very Protestant in that worship is secondary to community. Indeed, worship comes first (true worship, not rock show concerts and priests telling us jokes and playing violen (honestly, that was a new low, also singing happy birthday after the recital of petitions.. i don't know)) first, and from that follows a community based on the worship of God. This is a very real distinction.. you cannot live like a Catholic unless you know your Faith, and if you love the TLM, then you must love it, because no one would listen to Latin if they could choose English and didn't care what was happening. It is a big difference, and a serious division, but not for the neo-conservatives, but for the Traditionals. You won't see neo-cons (sounds kinda like a transforming robot, also a term used by white supremicists) talking much about traditionalists, it's a non-issue. They like where things are headed, since the Church is moving to accomadate for the changes of this world (one of it's goals has been to catch up wtih the world as it has been since 1789, the year of the satanic revolution in France), they feel no problem, but for Trads who love the Body of Christ because it is the same "Yesterday, today, and always" according to Paul (he says it about Christ) they see something has changed in style and mood. It is a oneway difference, the cure is to join the Novus Ordo attending masses (which isn't wrong at all, it is the Normal Mass of the Church), and ignore the rest of us, crying for the practices of our Fathers in Faith. God bless, Mikey
Anthony Posted April 18, 2006 Author Posted April 18, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Apr 17 2006, 08:15 PM']there is one church. But the current Pope and many bishops have fallen away. In all reality, Trads and Novus Ordinarians are members of 2 different relegions. [right][snapback]951449[/snapback][/right] [/quote] So, you don't adhere to the authority of the Pope? In other words, you are still in schism with the Church despite your claims that you are not. Hmmm! That sounds as though you are a cafeteria catholic, despite your claims that you are not. This clears a lot up.
philothea Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 [quote name='Anthony' date='Apr 17 2006, 07:32 PM']So, you don't adhere to the authority of the Pope? In other words, you are still in schism with the Church despite your claims that you are not. Hmmm! That sounds as though you are a cafeteria catholic, despite your claims that you are not. This clears a lot up. [right][snapback]951478[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Yanno... If there is a split... and the pope is on one side, and some other people are on the other side... I see no way that the other side could possibly be right. What with the whole Holy Spirit and Infalliblity and Catholic Church-ness of it all. If the pope and pretty much everyone else in the Church can go wrong, there was never a Church to begin with. Therefore, nothing to have split from. At the very least, the other side would have to claim to have a pope. And a good reason why their guy is the real deal.
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 [quote name='Anthony' date='Apr 17 2006, 08:32 PM']So, you don't adhere to the authority of the Pope? In other words, you are still in schism with the Church despite your claims that you are not. Hmmm! That sounds as though you are a cafeteria catholic, despite your claims that you are not. This clears a lot up. [right][snapback]951478[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I ACCEPT THE AUTHORITY OF THE POPE. but at the same time, he may possibly be a heretic, and he obviously holds ideas contray to Tradition. becuase of this, i will not except novelty Teachings. Neo-Catholics have a false view of what Catholic obidience is. if something the Pope says goes against the Faith and against God, one must oppose it. until you realise this, their is no hope for you.
MichaelFilo Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 EENS makes a point. You can have some less than holy men as Popes, and you can have men of incorrect opinion, but none of them can ever teach their incorrect opinion. John Paul I (not the 2nd, please no flame/spam) wrote a letter showing his support for contraceptives.. before he became pope. Did he change his mind before he became pope? I don't know. All I know is that he wasn't against it (completly). God bless, Mikey
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