MC IMaGiNaZUN Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 TLM participants are very faithful and serious about religion. Good for them. But just because they are hardcore, does that necessarily mean that all people of all times in all places who have been to TLM are therefore necessarily as faithful? I would say it is naive to assume that there was some kind of heavenly perfect church when all the priests where faithful to the magisterium and there was no such thing as liturgical abuse. I prefer TLM simply because it reveals the divine mystery better than an in your face NO. However, many people criticize the Western World and the collapse of religion and sometimes go so far as to blame it on the NO itself. Many others, including myself lay much fault to those who use NO to promote their own agendas. However, it would be naive to only measure the fruit in the western world, when Africa, Vietname, Philipines, and India have had rapid conversion and vocation rates since the introduction of NO. In other third world countries which have their own traditional expression, they are not afraid, ashamed, or too lazy to quite mass after an hour. It would be odd for them to have sunday mass less than two hours. I can see a lot of fruit of NO in other countries, which have cultures that Latin and Rome make little or no sense. SHALOM
goldenchild17 Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Apr 17 2006, 07:49 PM']a pope can teach error, unoffically. John XXII taught that No one saw the beatific vision until the after the Last Judgment. he even taught in sermons this point, after he became pope. Offically the Pope can not teach error, but it is certainly possible for Popes to unoffically teach error. [right][snapback]951500[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Although I agree with you in principle I've always seen John XXII as a bad example of this since the beatific vision wasn't even defined until after him(if I remember correctly) and as such he was free to speculate.
dspen2005 Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Apr 17 2006, 09:22 PM']look at the average though. [right][snapback]951581[/snapback][/right] [/quote] but u must have charity and thus cannot blanketly categorize those who attend the Missa Normativa as being of less faith and devotion as those who attend the TLM. (hopefully, as you grow up, these things will become evident for you)
Anthony Posted April 18, 2006 Author Posted April 18, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Apr 17 2006, 09:22 PM']look at the average though. [right][snapback]951581[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Despite what you think about the Novos Ordo Mass, I would much rather attend it as opposed to the SSPX churches you attend. The NO and the TLM are in reference to how the Mass is celebrated, not the type of Church it is. My point from the beginning is that the Church should not be separated by this distinction because people think that the other group of worshippers are worshipping wrong. The NO Mass is accepted and very widely used all over the world. The TLM is also available, but access is not always available to all peoples. I wish I could get through to you people that the NO and the TLM do not in any way refer to the Church as a whole, but rather the way the Mass is celebrated. We should respect each others beliefs and opinions and stop driving a wedge between ourselves over something such as our faith that should unite us.
Anthony Posted April 18, 2006 Author Posted April 18, 2006 [quote name='JesusITrustInYou' date='Apr 17 2006, 09:41 PM']Didn't Anthony entitle this thread "there is only one Holy Catholic Church"? "...to a Church that says the Mass in a way it ought" Isn't the NO Mass approved by the Church? But perhaps you're talking that way because you've seen a lot of abuses in NO Masses...and that does sound like that's your story...so, I'm sorry that you've had bad experiences at NO Masses... I'm not going to try to change your preference. If you like going to the TLM, good! I think I would like it too if I ever got to go, but I've only ever been to NO Masses... Anyway, please let's all keep in mind that people have preferences, and we don't need to change them. Both Masses are approved by the Church. Both are THE MASS. It's good that people like and attend the TLM, because that way it won't die out. It's a good tradition. But the NO Mass is wonderful too. So I bow out now, begging you to keep in mind Anthony's title for this thread..."there is only one Holy Catholic Church" [right][snapback]951636[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Thank you so much for actually reading what I wrote in my original thread. I find it refreshing that there is someone out there who understands why I have such issues. I feel almost as though that there will always be a division that shouldn't exist between the TLM and the NO worshippers and I am scared for the Church as a whole because such lack of understanding and truth is what drove so many away and caused such a huge separation from the Catholic faith. I don't want to see the Catholic Church divided over the way the Mass is celebrated, but it seems everytime I am on this phorum, there is always a thread titled "calling all TLM" or something to that extent. I don't want there to be so much debate, but I felt compelled to make a statement. I'm glad one person actually knew what I was talking about. Thank you and God Bless.
Paladin D Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 (edited) Nevermind. I'm sick of this carp. Edited April 18, 2006 by Paladin D
Lil Red Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 [quote]Catholic vs Catholic Debate A post or comment that results in doctrinal debates that might cause scandal among the faithful. *Effective immediately, any negative criticism of the current Magisterium will result in deletion, and a warning from the moderators. This includes but is not limited to criticism of the Novus Ordo mass and/or our Holy Father. [/quote] closed.
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