Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 a pope can teach error, unoffically. John XXII taught that No one saw the beatific vision until the after the Last Judgment. he even taught in sermons this point, after he became pope. Offically the Pope can not teach error, but it is certainly possible for Popes to unoffically teach error.
MilesChristi Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Apr 17 2006, 10:40 PM']I ACCEPT THE AUTHORITY OF THE POPE. but at the same time, he may possibly be a heretic, and he obviously holds ideas contray to Tradition. becuase of this, i will not except novelty Teachings. Neo-Catholics have a false view of what Catholic obidience is. if something the Pope says goes against the Faith and against God, one must oppose it. until you realise this, their is no hope for you. [right][snapback]951487[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Brother, in another thread today you said the following: [quote]im breaking the 4th. but my confessor said i could. i really don't know what to do.[/quote] If you don't know what to do in that situation, what makes you think you have the ability to discern "novelty" papal teachings?
MichaelFilo Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 Does it come up anywhere else?!?!? If it does, it's not a novelty, I suppose. regardless, no pope as of late has been out making ex Cathedra statements, so we are safe. God bless, Mikey
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 [quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Apr 17 2006, 09:04 PM']Does it come up anywhere else?!?!? If it does, it's not a novelty, I suppose. regardless, no pope as of late has been out making ex Cathedra statements, so we are safe. God bless, Mikey [right][snapback]951526[/snapback][/right] [/quote] i really don't know what we are discussing. i agree with you.
dspen2005 Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Apr 17 2006, 08:15 PM']there is one church. But the current Pope and many bishops have fallen away. In all reality, Trads and Novus Ordinarians are members of 2 different relegions. [right][snapback]951449[/snapback][/right] [/quote] u are too young, it seems, to know what u are talking about
JesusITrustInYou Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 (edited) [quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Apr 17 2006, 08:31 PM']There is a very real difference, and it is most noticable in the crowd who goes to the TLM, and then that which goes to the NO. You do not have to hate the current church to be able to see which group is the one with faith to move mountains and which one is part of this world. However, the uniting factor, the Eucharist, is what ties it all together. Remember, there is no seperation as long as there is the Eucharist (licit and valid). God bless, Mikey [right][snapback]951295[/snapback][/right] [/quote] oh my...well...I go to the NO Mass, and I know lots of good people who do...people who do indeed have great faith...[i]maybe[/i] there is more room in the NO Mass for people to be careless (and other adjectives). But...I agree with Anthony: [quote name='Anthony' date='Apr 17 2006, 10:07 PM']However, you cannot judge with absolute certainty that all who attend the Novos Ordo Mass are like that you said. That isn't (or it shouldn't) be the reason why there is so much hostility between those who go to the Tridentine Mass and those who go to the Novos Ordo Mass. My point is that there is so many debates between people who go to the Novos Ordo and people who go to the Tridentine Mass. There should never be a debate like this because we believe the same thing and the Mass is still the Mass whether it is celebrated in Latin, Spanish, or English and whether it is the Novos Ordo Mass or the Tridentine Mass. Point is, we are all Catholic. Let's not debate with one another over how the Mass is said.[right][snapback]951437[/snapback][/right] [/quote] his first line, "you cannot judge with absolute certainty that all who attend the Novos Ordo Mass are like that you said" is how I feel too... I'm sorry if this seems that I'm judging you because of what you said... I'm sure you're just speaking from your experience and following your conscience. God bless! Edited April 18, 2006 by JesusITrustInYou
MichaelFilo Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 That was a mean comment... I'm going to take up the arguement of the NAAMBL (North American Association for Man Boy Love) and say you are an ageist.. being young doesn't mean you are lesser in capacity to understand.. etc. But yes, when you consider that a pope can be of incorrect view, he is not wrong... Note, I don't think this is the case, but I'm not bound to his conciosince... God bless, Mikey
dspen2005 Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 i know many NOers who are more knowledgeable and more faithful to the Church than the TLMers
Fidei Defensor Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Apr 17 2006, 09:15 PM']there is one church. But the current Pope and many bishops have fallen away. In all reality, Trads and Novus Ordinarians are members of 2 different relegions. [right][snapback]951449[/snapback][/right] [/quote] [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Apr 17 2006, 09:40 PM']I ACCEPT THE AUTHORITY OF THE POPE. but at the same time, he may possibly be a heretic, and he obviously holds ideas contray to Tradition. becuase of this, i will not except novelty Teachings. Neo-Catholics have a false view of what Catholic obidience is. if something the Pope says goes against the Faith and against God, one must oppose it. until you realise this, their is no hope for you. [right][snapback]951487[/snapback][/right] [/quote] My heart pains in a way that is not able to be put into words. Please pray. Pray for me. Pray for yourself. I will pray for you. I really give up on this kind of discussion. It is fruitless. Please, for your own good, and that of the Church, spend time with Jesus in the Eucharist.
kamiller42 Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 [quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Apr 17 2006, 06:36 PM']modestly. One woman was explaining to her child what was going on in the Mass, trying to raise him in Truth, instead of letting [b]the little fluffy air extraction[/b] run around and be loud. Oh, and the family size count is also much closer to that of the "Go forth and multiply" numbering at the TLM. That is what I call some signs of the more faithful bunch. [right][snapback]951382[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Equating children with fluffy air extractions. That's good respect for God's creations. Let's see how it would sound if Jesus used such a description. [quote]The disciples rebuked them, but Jesus said, "Let the little fluffy air extractions come to me, and do not prevent them; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."[/quote] Yea, looks like you properly represent your faith. I am privileged to learn from such a faith filled man. I agree with some of your points, but I don't think one needs to stand in Ivory tower to make the points. No group is protected from human error. Your faith-o-meter operates based on a lot of external signs. You are very concerned about what goes into one's mouth instead of what comes out. What is the point of all the prostrating if there is no internal conversion? When someone is involved in name calling and equating the young with fluffy air extractions? Make sure when you throw your rocks at the NO crowd that you don't break your pretty stain glass windows.
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 [quote name='dspen2005' date='Apr 17 2006, 09:14 PM']i know many NOers who are more knowledgeable and more faithful to the Church than the TLMers [right][snapback]951554[/snapback][/right] [/quote] look at the average though.
MichaelFilo Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 Wow, I suppose joking online never came across well... nor do I actually equate children with farting, or any of that. I like children, if I had plans to have any, i'd have plenty, if God should so choose to let me, etc. Anyways, I go to the daily mass with the NOers (The noers?) and there are faithful ones... don't get me wrong, I think I spend a little time in my posts to make room for the exception. Anyways, the problem is, it is the exception. Now, again at my TLM church, where they say the NO, there are plenty of faithful people there too, don't get me wrong. I just find that outside of that atmosphere, that Church that is, you get a general decline in other Churches. I know this one Church that does these marches to nearby abortion clinics and such, and then on sAundays.. they are chewing gum and talking on their cells during mass and the priest doens't care.. see then I see someone like Fr. Conrad, a NO priest, yell at someone in the middle of Mass for that, and I get happy. There are exceptions, and faithful NO goers.. what do I also notice though? All those people who go to the nearby church for daily Mass end up going to the Church downtown on Sundays that has the TLM mass.. I could be wrong, but I sense that it may not even be the TLM itself.. just the type of people who would go to it that really make it something else, although I am in favor of the TLM for other reasons, not withstanding the current translation of the Mass into English is second rate at some points. I think if I hadn't seen both groups and had a chance to compare, I'd have said there are faithful NO going Christs.. and all.. but even they end up going to the TLM church (and some to the indult mass from time to time). But this is quite fruitless, because honestly, new Catholics don't fall in love with the TLM, because the NO is more accomadating to PRotestants and the current age, and this is a fact. (Someone please mention Sungenis (sp?) and prove me wrong, but he's a bit crazy, have you read his converstion story?) Anywho, if I didn't see the NO daily massers go 30 minutes out of their way to go to a Church that says the Mass in a way it ought.. I'd say nothing, but I do. God bless, Mikey
JesusITrustInYou Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 (edited) [quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Apr 17 2006, 11:33 PM']Anywho, if I didn't see the NO daily massers go 30 minutes out of their way to go to a Church that says the Mass in a way it ought.. I'd say nothing, but I do. God bless, Mikey [right][snapback]951617[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Didn't Anthony entitle this thread "there is only one Holy Catholic Church"? "...to a Church that says the Mass in a way it ought" Isn't the NO Mass approved by the Church? But perhaps you're talking that way because you've seen a lot of abuses in NO Masses...and that does sound like that's your story...so, I'm sorry that you've had bad experiences at NO Masses... I'm not going to try to change your preference. If you like going to the TLM, good! I think I would like it too if I ever got to go, but I've only ever been to NO Masses... Anyway, please let's all keep in mind that people have preferences, and we don't need to change them. Both Masses are approved by the Church. Both are THE MASS. It's good that people like and attend the TLM, because that way it won't die out. It's a good tradition. But the NO Mass is wonderful too. So I bow out now, begging you to keep in mind Anthony's title for this thread..."there is only one Holy Catholic Church" Edited April 18, 2006 by JesusITrustInYou
CatholicCid Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 (edited) Isn't it lucky that we can squabble about what type of Mass is better to attend when some of our brothers risk their life to attend any kind of Mass. Why help our enemies? Let them attempt to divide us. Put apart the petty differences and realize we are unified in Christ. Whether you prefer the NO or the TLM, in the end, we all are Praising the Christ. Rejoice and be glad. Edited April 18, 2006 by CatholicCid
qfnol31 Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 [quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Apr 17 2006, 09:33 PM']There are exceptions, and faithful NO goers.. what do I also notice though? All those people who go to the nearby church for daily Mass end up going to the Church downtown on Sundays that has the TLM mass.. I could be wrong, but I sense that it may not even be the TLM itself.. just the type of people who would go to it that really make it something else, although I am in favor of the TLM for other reasons, not withstanding the current translation of the Mass into English is second rate at some points. I think if I hadn't seen both groups and had a chance to compare, I'd have said there are faithful NO going Christs.. and all.. but even they end up going to the TLM church (and some to the indult mass from time to time). But this is quite fruitless, because honestly, new Catholics don't fall in love with the TLM, because the NO is more accomadating to PRotestants and the current age, and this is a fact. (Someone please mention Sungenis (sp?) and prove me wrong, but he's a bit crazy, have you read his converstion story?) Anywho, if I didn't see the NO daily massers go 30 minutes out of their way to go to a Church that says the Mass in a way it ought.. I'd say nothing, but I do. God bless, Mikey [right][snapback]951617[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Just my two centavi, I would go to the Tridentine Mass, but the only one at home is in downtown at 6:30 pm on Sunday night and the one here isn't exactly the most reverent or best Mass...I normally go to the Novus Ordo out of convenience (well, actually because I'm scared to wait until 6:30) or because the Novus Ordo at which I assist (in the older sense of the word, pre-Vatican II and post Vatican II as it should be, not as it is.......) is much more reverent than anything I know of. Plus, one of my favourite Priests is there.
MichaelFilo Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 I hate to repeat myself, but I will.. in the end the Eucharist ties us together (valid and licit) and keeps those who are slaves to the enemy outside. (Even the Orthodox in the end are fallen from the fullness of truth of Christ). And like I said, this is an issue for the TLM stock, not the NO stock, who have no problem ignoring the other group. The TLM stock tends to be the rowdier ones.. but thats only because they see so much room for improvement in the state of the Church (which there is, especially in these days). They also tend to be more faith centered as opposed to works centered (but end up doing more good thing as I've seen the two communities). And while you may say bad experiences.. and it maybe just that.. when you got 3 or 4 churches which I've seen that say the NO doing the same thing (one to amuch lesser extent) and then a church that says the TLM and the NO with two priests who seem to get it right.. I just don't know, I think we can know work by it's fruits. At any rate, one Church, right? Just some of us want to see the old glory return, for surely the graces are there, it's just the harvesters aren't reaping. God bless, Mikey
Fidei Defensor Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 I think we just need to return to the Eucharist. As you keep saying, it is what ties us together. If the Church as a whole would return to the love that is Jesus in the Eucharist, and have the fire of faith re-enkindled in their souls, the Church could be one again.
qfnol31 Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 [quote]And like I said, this is an issue for the TLM stock, not the NO stock, who have no problem ignoring the other group. The TLM stock tends to be the rowdier ones.. but thats only because they see so much room for improvement in the state of the Church (which there is, especially in these days). They also tend to be more faith centered as opposed to works centered (but end up doing more good thing as I've seen the two communities).[/quote] I agree here...I personally prefer the Tridentine Mass, but for now, I'll take whatever offers the least distraction. [quote]And while you may say bad experiences.. and it maybe just that.. when you got 3 or 4 churches which I've seen that say the NO doing the same thing (one to amuch lesser extent) and then a church that says the TLM and the NO with two priests who seem to get it right.. I just don't know, I think we can know work by it's fruits.[/quote] I wish I could assist at St. John Cantius in Chicago.
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 [quote name='qfnol31' date='Apr 17 2006, 10:06 PM']I agree here...I personally prefer the Tridentine Mass, but for now, I'll take whatever offers the least distraction. I wish I could assist at St. John Cantius in Chicago. [right][snapback]951692[/snapback][/right] [/quote] i want to go there. it looks quite beatiful.
qfnol31 Posted April 18, 2006 Posted April 18, 2006 It is wonderful! Ask Colleen, she really likes it!
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