Hell

[ChrisZewe]

*Nods*...anyway. Yeah. A lot of you probably remember me from awhile ago. And I'm back again o.O But not to start trouble. I have honest questions this time and am interested in their answers. Butyeah...during my previous visits here, almost all of the people I talked to informed me that Hell was simply a plane of existence, so to speak, without God. Not fire and brimstone. Recently, though, I've actually...you know...read things, and I found this:

[quote](Revelation 20:11-15) 11 And I saw a great white throne and the one seated on it. From before him the earth and the heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Ha´des gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds. 14 And death and Ha´des were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire. 15 [b]Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire[/b].[/quote]

That seems pretty straightforward to me. If you're not saved, you burn. How can you disagree with that?

[Lil Red]

i do hope that you will stick around for answers, and engage in honest and fruitful discussion. God bless you

[Theoketos]

[quote name='ChrisZewe' post='982487' date='May 16 2006, 11:25 AM']
*Nods*...anyway. Yeah. A lot of you probably remember me from awhile ago. And I'm back again o.O But not to start trouble. I have honest questions this time and am interested in their answers. Butyeah...during my previous visits here, almost all of the people I talked to informed me that Hell was simply a plane of existence, so to speak, without God. Not fire and brimstone. Recently, though, I've actually...you know...read things, and I found this:
That seems pretty straightforward to me. If you're not saved, you burn. How can you disagree with that?
[/quote]

With the words; "Literary Device."

I am sincerely happy to have you back, and on top of that asking honest question.

My heart burns for the truth as well.

[ChrisZewe]

You may be happy to know that I'm a Christian now, albeit unofficially and lacking membership in any sect.

You will most likely be dismayed to know that I want with all my heart to one day become a member of the Watchtower Society.

Oh, and...are you trying to tell me that the explicitly mentioned lake of fire is symbolic of continued life, just imperceptibly bleak?

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='ChrisZewe' post='982503' date='May 16 2006, 11:37 AM']
You may be happy to know that I'm a Christian now, albeit unofficially and lacking membership in any sect.

You will most likely be dismayed to know that I want with all my heart to one day become a member of the Watchtower Society.
[/quote]

[ChrisZewe]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='982506' date='May 16 2006, 12:38 PM']

[/quote]


And if I recall, I still harbor a rather great dislike your personality x.x

[homeschoolmom]

Probably...

[Jaime]

Theo is saying literary device as in "Its a bad place that is absent of the Grace of God but that's too long and is clumsy"

Another example that I've used to demonstrate that the bible is not always literal is when Jesus is talking about Judgement Day. He'll gather all the sheep to his right and the goats to his left. Not even the strictest believer that the bible is the literal word of God believes that we'll all change into four legged creatures.

Which I find interesting because there are more references to sheep and shepherds by Christ than any other metaphor.

[ChrisZewe]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='982522' date='May 16 2006, 12:50 PM']
Theo is saying literary device as in "Its a bad place that is absent of the Grace of God but that's too long and is clumsy"

Another example that I've used to demonstrate that the bible is not always literal is when Jesus is talking about Judgement Day. He'll gather all the sheep to his right and the goats to his left. Not even the strictest believer that the bible is the literal word of God believes that we'll all change into four legged creatures.

Which I find interesting because there are more references to sheep and shepherds by Christ than any other metaphor.
[/quote]

Yes, but that's clearly a metaphor. The bit about fire and brimstone and "being tormented for eternity" (forgive me if that's a misquote, but it isn't much of one) isn't so obvious, if it's even a metaphor at all. Not once does the Bible mention your belief, but it quite clearly says that Hell is a place of actual physical suffering, and lots of it.

[Jaime]

But if one is to take the bible to be the literal Word of God. Then why the pass on sheep and goats? It cannot be the literal word of God except for the goat thing.

And if sheep and goats get a pass, then maybe the eternal lake of fire might qualify too. I doubt if anyone would argue that hell is pleasant. To be completely absent of God's grace has to be a painful experience. But it is possible that it isn't a lake of fire.

[cmotherofpirl]

Either way, I am trying to be VERY good as to not find out if its literal or not.

[ChrisZewe]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='982546' date='May 16 2006, 01:17 PM']
But if one is to take the bible to be the literal Word of God. Then why the pass on sheep and goats? It cannot be the literal word of God except for the goat thing.

And if sheep and goats get a pass, then maybe the eternal lake of fire might qualify too. I doubt if anyone would argue that hell is pleasant. To be completely absent of God's grace has to be a painful experience. But it is possible that it isn't a lake of fire.
[/quote]

But my point is that the sheep and the goats are [i]obviously[/i] a metaphor, because transforming all people into furry quadrupeds serves no practical purpose, whereas subjecting the wicked ones to eternal torment in a lake of fire does.

But no, "Hell" would not be a pleasant place. But then, what need would the all-merciful God have for a place of eternal unhappiness? Heaven is for God, the Earth, now, is for Man, and one day, the Earth will be a paradise where the righteous live on forever. When the wicked and unrepenetent (sp?) die, however...no, no Hell. The atheist's version of death - unlife.

[GenesiusMMVI]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='982552' date='May 16 2006, 01:20 PM']
Either way, I am trying to be VERY good as to not find out if its literal or not.
[/quote]

Good answer! Good answer!

I remembered this quote..from comedian Mark Maron:

“I believe in God... just in case. It's like there's some list somewhere and you don't want to be on it. I don't want to say THERE'S NO GOD! and then die and say, Oh, Hi... Is there some kind of community service I can do?”

[ChrisZewe]

[quote name='Genesius MMVI' post='982563' date='May 16 2006, 01:31 PM']
Good answer! Good answer!

I remembered this quote..from comedian Mark Maron:

“I believe in God... just in case. It's like there's some list somewhere and you don't want to be on it. I don't want to say THERE'S NO GOD! and then die and say, Oh, Hi... Is there some kind of community service I can do?”
[/quote]

Ugh. That quote is disgusting.

[Jaime]

[quote name='ChrisZewe' post='982557' date='May 16 2006, 12:23 PM']
But my point is that the sheep and the goats are [i]obviously[/i] a metaphor, because transforming all people into furry quadrupeds serves no practical purpose, whereas subjecting the wicked ones to eternal torment in a lake of fire does. [/quote]

you don't know that. Why is that obvious? How do you know that God's plan isn't to have everyone turned into sheep that can talk? (We'd have to talk because we have lines)

(in sheep's voice)

"Baaahht Loh-oh-oh-rd when did we see you hungry ah-ahnd thirsty?"

None of us know the mind of God.

[quote]

But no, "Hell" would not be a pleasant place. But then, what need would the all-merciful God have for a place of eternal unhappiness? Heaven is for God, the Earth, now, is for Man, and one day, the Earth will be a paradise where the righteous live on forever. When the wicked and unrepenetent (sp?) die, however...no, no Hell. The atheist's version of death - unlife.
[/quote]


Hell exists because of a pesky little doctrine called free will. Without it, there would be no hell.

[Theoketos]

[quote name='ChrisZewe' post='982566' date='May 16 2006, 12:34 PM']
Ugh. That quote is disgusting.
[/quote]

I kinda agree.

So Chris, honestly how does one determine what is obviously a metaphor and what is not obviously a metaphor in a book that is about 1900+ years old written in a odd manner by many authors? (Leading question...

Additionally I have a tanget:Hell will have physical properties in so far as eventually even the damned wil be reunited (but so not feel soooo good) with their bodies.

I am so happy that you are Christian BTW...prayers do work, people do win!

[ChrisZewe]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='982576' date='May 16 2006, 01:38 PM']you don't know that. Why is that obvious? How do you know that God's plan isn't to have everyone turned into sheep that can talk? (We'd have to talk because we have lines)

(in sheep's voice)

"Baaahht Loh-oh-oh-rd when did we see you hungry ah-ahnd thirsty?"[/quote]

Because God created Man in His image, and turning us into sheep and goats would sort of contradict that, unless God somehow turned into a sheep over the years. Which would not happen.

[quote]Hell exists because of a pesky little doctrine called free will. Without it, there would be no hell.
[/quote]


No, not really. That's all I have to say on the matter, going by what you said ._.

[GenesiusMMVI]

[quote name='ChrisZewe' post='982566' date='May 16 2006, 01:34 PM']
Ugh. That quote is disgusting.
[/quote]

It was a joke. Lighten up....

[rkwright]

[quote name='ChrisZewe' post='982557' date='May 16 2006, 12:23 PM']
But my point is that the sheep and the goats are [i]obviously[/i] a metaphor, because transforming all people into furry quadrupeds serves no practical purpose, whereas subjecting the wicked ones to eternal torment in a lake of fire does....

When the wicked and unrepenetent (sp?) die, however...no, no Hell. The atheist's version of death - unlife.
[/quote]

I'm not sure what your argument is here? Based on the above, I will take it that you think of Hell as the lake of fire. It would be important, like Jamie said, to not take this metaphor too far. I mean the practical idea of a lake of fire? Or the opposite, of Heaven being in the clouds where we all play harps; they both serve the purpose of getting the point across. That is Heaven=eternal happiness and Hell=eternal loss.

I'm not sure what the end of your post meant, that the atheist's version of death-unlife is a hell which is really no hell. Hell most certainly exists, as revealed through Christ and the Church. The soul is eternal; souls that don't go to heaven don't simply 'die' (refering to your part on the atheist's version of death)

There is an interesting tradition in the Eastern Churches (I think... at least thats where I heard it from, a greek Orthodox priest) that both those in Heaven and Hell recieve the same 'light from God' so to say. Just those who are in His grace it is eternal happiness, while those who hate God (those in Hell) it is more like eternal loss, or burning.

The bottom line is that Hell is not a place you want to experience. John got that through in revelations by describing it as a lake of fire, others have called it a place without God, or wailing and gnashing of teeth...

[Theoketos]

[quote name='rkwright' post='982587' date='May 16 2006, 12:42 PM']
I'm not sure what your argument is here? Based on the above, I will take it that you think of Hell as the lake of fire. It would be important, like Jamie said, to not take this metaphor too far. I mean the practical idea of a lake of fire? Or the opposite, of Heaven being in the clouds where we all play harps; they both serve the purpose of getting the point across. That is Heaven=eternal happiness and Hell=eternal loss.

I'm not sure what the end of your post meant, that the atheist's version of death-unlife is a hell which is really no hell. Hell most certainly exists, as revealed through Christ and the Church. The soul is eternal; souls that don't go to heaven don't simply 'die' (refering to your part on the atheist's version of death)

There is an interesting tradition in the Eastern Churches (I think... at least thats where I heard it from, a greek Orthodox priest) that both those in Heaven and Hell recieve the same 'light from God' so to say. Just those who are in His grace it is eternal happiness, while those who hate God (those in Hell) it is more like eternal loss, or burning.

The bottom line is that Hell is not a place you want to experience. John got that through in revelations by describing it as a lake of fire, others have called it a place without God, or wailing and gnashing of teeth...
[/quote]

I love that Eastern Metaphor.

I also like Dante's Inferno...Chris you would enjoy it.