Hell

[ChrisZewe]

[quote name='Theoketos' post='982579' date='May 16 2006, 01:40 PM']
I kinda agree.

So Chris, honestly how does one determine what is obviously a metaphor and what is not obviously a metaphor in a book that is about 1900+ years old written in a odd manner by many authors? (Leading question...

Additionally I have a tanget:Hell will have physical properties in so far as eventually even the damned wil be reunited (but so not feel soooo good) with their bodies.

I am so happy that you are Christian BTW...prayers do work, people do win!
[/quote]


You really can't, but in all likelihood, it's safe to assume some things. I'm thinking of a random number between 1 and 1000000000000. Guess it. If you do, I'll jump off a bridge. While there's a chance that you'll get it right, the chance is so small that it can be ruled out. If the chance comes true, though, well then yes, there are dire consequences for me. The same holds true with religion. But with religion, if we assume that we can't understand what's metaphorical and what's literal, even in cases regarding sheep and goats, then we're not going to get any closer to the Lord, now are we?

Prayers do work, but not memorized bits of nonsense that you spew mechanically. And no, none of PM's alleged prayers had any affect on me, nor did any Catholic's. This place actually turned me away from Catholicism x.x The reason I found religion is because of the most incredible person alive on this planet, and she kindly showed me the right way. Again, not because you 'prayed'.

[rkwright]

Just thought I'd throw this in here...
from newadvent.org on hell

[quote]V. POENA DAMNI

The poena damni, or pain of loss, consists in the loss of the beatific vision and in so complete a separation of all the powers of the soul from God that it cannot find in Him even the least peace and rest. It is accompanied by the loss of all supernatural gifts, e.g. the loss of faith. The characters impressed by the sacraments alone remain to the greater confusion of the bearer. The pain of loss is not the mere absence of superior bliss, but it is also a most intense positive pain. The utter void of the soul made for the enjoyment of infinite truth and infinite goodness causes the reprobate immeasurable anguish. Their consciousness that God, on Whom they entirely depend, is their enemy forever is overwhelming. Their consciousness of having by their own deliberate folly forfeited the highest blessings for transitory and delusive pleasures humiliates and depresses them beyond measure. The desire for happiness inherent in their very nature, wholly unsatisfied and no longer able to find any compensation for the loss of God in delusive pleasure, renders them utterly miserable. Moreover, they are well aware that God is infinitely happy, and hence their hatred and their impotent desire to injure Him fills them with extreme bitterness. And the same is true with regard to their hatred of all the friends of God who enjoy the bliss of heaven. The pain of loss is the very core of eternal punishment. If the damned beheld God face to face, hell itself, notwithstanding its fire, would be a kind of heaven. Had they but some union with God even if not precisely the union of the beatific vision, hell would no longer be hell, but a kind of purgatory. And yet the pain of loss is but the natural consequence of that aversion from God which lies in the nature of every mortal sin.
VI. POENA SENSUS

The poena sensus, or pain of sense, consists in the torment of fire so frequently mentioned in the Holy Bible. [b]According to the greater number of theologians the term fire denotes a material fire, and so a real fire. We hold to this teaching as absolutely true and correct. However, we must not forget two things: from Catharinus (d. 1553) to our times there have never been wanting theologians who interpret the Scriptural term fire metaphorically, as denoting an incorporeal fire; and secondly, thus far the Church has not censured their opinion. Some few of the Fathers also thought of a metaphorical explanation. [/b]Nevertheless, Scripture and tradition speak again and again of the fire of hell, and there is no sufficient reason for taking the term as a mere metaphor. It is urged: How can a material fire torment demons, or human souls before the resurrection of the body? But, if our soul is so joined to the body as to be keenly sensitive to the pain of fire, why should the omnipotent God be unable to bind even pure spirits to some material substance in such a manner that they suffer a torment more or less similar to the pain of fire which the soul can feel on earth? The reply indicates, as far as possible, how we may form an idea of the pain of fire which the demons suffer. Theologians have elaborated various theories on this subject, which, however, we do not wish to detail here (cf. the very minute study by Franz Schmid, "Quaestiones selectae ex theol. dogm.", Paderborn, 1891, q. iii; also Guthberlet, "Die poena sensus" in "Katholik", II, 1901, 305 sqq., 385 sqq.).

It is quite superfluous to add that the nature of hell-fire is different from that of our ordinary fire; for instance, it continues to burn without the need of a continually renewed supply of fuel. How are we to form a conception of that fire in detail remains quite undetermined; we merely know that it is corporeal. The demons suffer the torment of fire, even when, by Divine permission, they leave the confines of hell and roam about on earth. In what manner this happens is uncertain. We may assume that they remain fettered inseparably to a portion of that fire. [/quote]

So it seems that both a metephorical view and a literal view of Hell are both Orthodox views..

[quote name='ChrisZewe' post='982589' date='May 16 2006, 12:46 PM']
Prayers do work, but not memorized bits of nonsense that you spew mechanically. And no, none of PM's alleged prayers had any affect on me, nor did any Catholic's. This place actually turned me away from Catholicism x.x The reason I found religion is because of the most incredible person alive on this planet, and she kindly showed me the right way. Again, not because you 'prayed'.
[/quote]



Don't underestimate the power of prayer, or the power of God to work through 'memorized bits of nonsense that (we) spew mechanically'. God's answer to the prayers of PMers could have been in a very different way than you see.

[AngelofJesus]

[quote] 1034
Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna," of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.614 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"615 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"616

1035
The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1036
The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."618[/quote]

What does the "the unquenchable fire" mean? Jesus also said, "Depart from Me, into everlasting fire"Matt. 25:41. The pain of loss is the greatest of the suffering of hell. The greater the value of what is lost, the greater is the pain of the loss. "The damned have lost what is of infinite worth, hence their pain is infinite." St. Alphonsus

Christ calls hell an "unquenchable fire" because the sensation of burning is the greatest pain which man can conceive on earth. Again, metaphorically speaking St. John the apostle was trying to convey something that is unconceivable. Another St. John, the one of the cross, puts a twist on St. Paul's 1Cor. 2:9, by saying "Neither eye has seen nor ear has heard, nor has it entered the heart of man to conceive what God has prepared for them that love him [i]not[/i]."

Edited May 16, 2006 by AngelofJesus

[Theoketos]

[quote name='ChrisZewe' date='May 16 2006, 12:46 PM' post='982589']
You really can't, but in all likelihood, it's safe to assume some things. I'm thinking of a random number between 1 and 1000000000000. Guess it. If you do, I'll jump off a bridge. While there's a chance that you'll get it right, the chance is so small that it can be ruled out. If the chance comes true, though, well then yes, there are dire consequences for me. The same holds true with religion. But with religion, if we assume that we can't understand what's metaphorical and what's literal, even in cases regarding sheep and goats, then we're not going to get any closer to the Lord, now are we?
[quote]


Prayers do work, but not memorized bits of nonsense that you spew mechanically. And no, none of PM's alleged prayers had any affect on me, nor did any Catholic's. This place actually turned me away from Catholicism x.x The reason I found religion is because of the most incredible person alive on this planet, and she kindly showed me the right way. Again, not because you 'prayed'.
[/quote]

I think you were more academically honest as an athiest/wicca. You did not answer my question still, because the whole lake of fire seems to be as obvious to me as the sheep thing...

[Semalsia]

[quote]Hell is a place of actual physical suffering, and lots of it. [/quote]

Um, I have a question. How can there be physical suffering, if there's nothing physical in it? Aren't souls metaphysical or something? So how do they experience physical torment?

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='ChrisZewe' post='982589' date='May 16 2006, 02:46 PM']
Prayers do work, but not memorized bits of nonsense that you spew mechanically. And no, none of PM's alleged prayers had any affect on me, nor did any Catholic's. This place actually turned me away from Catholicism x.x The reason I found religion is because of the most incredible person alive on this planet, and she kindly showed me the right way. Again, not because you 'prayed'.
[/quote]
ouch. look into ecumenism, if you're Christian you could at least be nice to other Christians. Of course, you probably don't think Catholics are Christian.

good luck transferring your affection for this girl into lasting conversion. We'll keep "praying" for you.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='ChrisZewe' post='982487' date='May 16 2006, 12:25 PM']
*Nods*...anyway. Yeah. A lot of you probably remember me from awhile ago. And I'm back again o.O But not to start trouble. I have honest questions this time and am interested in their answers. Butyeah...during my previous visits here, almost all of the people I talked to informed me that Hell was simply a plane of existence, so to speak, without God. Not fire and brimstone. Recently, though, I've actually...you know...read things, and I found this:
That seems pretty straightforward to me. If you're not saved, you burn. How can you disagree with that?
[/quote]


Chris,

Some people use the word hell to describe 'hades' and not the lake of fire. Hell in terms of the lake of fire is devoid of God, and souls will burn.

Whoever told you that it was just a plane of existance and no fire either was speaking of hades or does not know what the Catholic Church teaches.

Please check these out, it will help you because they are quotes from the first Christians (before 800 AD, many before 400 AD)

[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/god_christ.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/god_christ.asp[/url]
[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/scripture_tradition.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/scripture_tradition.asp[/url]
[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/church_papacy.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/church_papacy.asp[/url]
[url="http://www.ScriptureCatholic.com"]http://www.ScriptureCatholic.com[/url]

(please explore the other library pages at Catholic.com)

You can buy the Early Church Fathers writings from www.Logos.com for $250 or read them for free here: [url="http://www.NewAdvent.org/Fathers/"]http://www.NewAdvent.org/Fathers/[/url]

You can see for yourself the context.

A brief history of Christianity....
33 AD - Christ instituted the Church with Peter as it's first head bishop ( St. Matt 16:18-19, St. John 21) (Roman Catholic Church)
400 AD - The Church put together the New Testament, before this date the only official scripture was the Septuagint (aka Old Testament) which dated back to 293 BC.
1024 AD - The Great Schism of the Greek Orthodox
1517 AD - birth of Protestantism (which means to Protest the Catholic Church)
1829 AD - Mormonism is started
1872 AD - Jehovah's Witnesses is started in Pittsburgh by Charles T. Russell



God Bless,
ironmonk

[Norseman82]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='982576' date='May 16 2006, 12:38 PM']
everyone turned into sheep that can talk? (We'd have to talk because we have lines)

(in sheep's voice)


[/quote]

Why does a Monty Python episode come to mind?


Dinsdale.......



Dinsdale.....



Dinsdale.....

[dairygirl4u2c]

It's funny you use Revelations illustrate the fires of hell in a literal sense. Look at the rest of Revalation and tell me it's literal...

Also, just think about God and hell and what you would do if you were God, not that that's the basis of truth, but with info lacking, it's a good start as we are made in his image..

Did people choose to burn literally? No, they chose to be away from God.


It's funny you use Revelations illustrate the fires of hell in a literal sense. Look at the rest of Revalation and tell me it's literal...

Also, just think about God and hell and what you would do if you were God, not that that's the basis of truth, but with info lacking, it's a good start as we are made in his image..

Did people choose to burn literally? No, they chose to be away from God.

[philothea]

[quote name='Semalsia' post='982655' date='May 16 2006, 01:46 PM']
Um, I have a question. How can there be physical suffering, if there's nothing physical in it? Aren't souls metaphysical or something? So how do they experience physical torment?
[/quote]
(1) You can dream of burning, can't you? Experience does not necessarily require physical reality.

and

(2) Everyone is supposed to get a physical body back, eventually. Then there can be real physical pain.

PS: Welcome back, Chris!

[ChrisZewe]

We've digressed so far from my original point that it's not even funny. This always happens here - things get mixed up, and all the scholars come in and quote obscure bits of text that are irrefutable because no one has ever heard of them. At least no one on the other side. But my question now - with all the evidence above of actual fire, how is it that so many of you believe, or at least have e-screamed at me in the past, that Hell is just existence without God? I personally don't believe either, but I'm just wondering where [i]you people[/i] are coming from.

[quote name='philothea' post='982763' date='May 16 2006, 05:28 PM']
PS: Welcome back, Chris!
[/quote]


Hi!! I remember you, but not if I particularly liked you ._.

EDIT: Not that I did or didn't, I just don't remember X_x

Edited May 16, 2006 by ChrisZewe

[Jaime]

What evidence are you stating Chris?


Scripture passages that may or may not be literal? If they are literal then there will be a lot of goats who are burning forever. If they aren't literal. It still smells of elderberries.

Personally I don't care if hell is a big lake of molten whatever or a small room where Yanni music is being piped in. It exists in the absence of God. And I truly hope to have no part of that.

[philothea]

[quote name='ChrisZewe' post='982765' date='May 16 2006, 04:32 PM']
We've digressed so far from my original point that it's not even funny. This always happens here - things get mixed up, and all the scholars come in and quote obscure bits of text that are irrefutable because no one has ever heard of them. At least no one on the other side. But my question now - with all the evidence above of actual fire, how is it that so many of you believe, or at least have e-screamed at me in the past, that Hell is just existence without God? I personally don't believe either, but I'm just wondering where [i]you people[/i] are coming from.
[/quote]


I think all that's been proven is that there's no clear Catholic doctrine about whether hell is a physical place full of fire or not. I've seen plenty of writings of saints and visonaries who were shown hell, and it seemed awfully physical and full of fire to them. Honestly, I try not to think about it.

I'm not sure who was being so adamant earlier, or why. There are plenty of people who argue weird points here. I think that the most argumentative phatmassers often do not represent the majority opinion.

[quote name='ChrisZewe' post='982765' date='May 16 2006, 04:32 PM']
Hi!! I remember you, but not if I particularly liked you ._.

EDIT: Not that I did or didn't, I just don't remember X_x
[/quote]
:

Of course you liked me. Sheesh.

[ChrisZewe]

[quote name='philothea' post='982774' date='May 16 2006, 05:43 PM']


I think all that's been proven is that there's no clear Catholic doctrine about whether hell is a physical place full of fire or not. I've seen plenty of writings of saints and visonaries who were shown hell, and it seemed awfully physical and full of fire to them. Honestly, I try not to think about it.

I'm not sure who was being so adamant earlier, or why. There are plenty of people who argue weird points here. I think that the most argumentative phatmassers often do not represent the majority opinion.
:

Of course you liked me. Sheesh.

[/quote]


Well that about clears things up, even though you're still wrong x.x And I think I did. You're the one who knows Robert Jordan, right?

[philothea]

[quote name='ChrisZewe' post='982780' date='May 16 2006, 04:47 PM']
You're the one who knows Robert Jordan, right?
[/quote]
Close. His editor was one of my writing instructors.

And [i]now[/i] we're properly !

I get antsy if a thread stays on one subject too long.

[ChrisZewe]

[quote name='philothea' post='982789' date='May 16 2006, 05:54 PM']
Close. His editor was one of my writing instructors.

And [i]now[/i] we're properly !

I get antsy if a thread stays on one subject too long.
[/quote]

LAUREL AMBERDINE! Or something. Am I right?

[philothea]

[quote name='ChrisZewe' post='982791' date='May 16 2006, 04:56 PM']
LAUREL AMBERDINE! Or something. Am I right?
[/quote]
Yay, I'm famous. :

Yep.

[ChrisZewe]

>_> To be completely honest, I just remembered that your name was Laurel and I went into my GMail and typed "Laurel." But yeah...even though you're a Catholic, you still like...almost interacted with RJ, and that's almost as cool as riding a penguin, to me.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='ChrisZewe' post='982589' date='May 16 2006, 12:46 PM']
rayers do work, but not memorized bits of nonsense that you spew mechanically. And no, none of PM's alleged prayers had any affect on me, nor did any Catholic's. This place actually turned me away from Catholicism x.x The reason I found religion is because of the most incredible person alive on this planet, and she kindly showed me the right way. Again, not because you 'prayed'.
[/quote]
You'd like to think that, wouldn't you? Did God tell you this?



God leads people where he wants, so that means our prayers did work. Just because you arent Catholic doesnt mean prayers werent answered.

Anyway, you don't know me, I dont know you.. so..

Hey, how are you doing? :

[ChrisZewe]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='982826' date='May 16 2006, 06:32 PM']
You'd like to think that, wouldn't you? Did God tell you this?



God leads people where he wants, so that means our prayers did work. Just because you arent Catholic doesnt mean prayers werent answered.

Anyway, you don't know me, I dont know you.. so..

Hey, how are you doing? :
[/quote]


Just because you people say you prayed (even if you did), and I'm now Christian, doesn't mean a thing.

Hi. I'm Chris.