Hell

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='ChrisZewe' post='983007' date='May 16 2006, 07:29 PM']
Just because you people say you prayed (even if you did), and I'm now Christian, doesn't mean a thing.

Hi. I'm Chris.
[/quote]
Of course. However, the fact that you are now a Christian is great news, regardless of the means. God did play a part, but we shall never know how.

Hola. I'm Jared. Nice to meet you

[ChrisZewe]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='983030' date='May 16 2006, 08:37 PM']
Of course. However, the fact that you are now a Christian is great news, regardless of the means. God did play a part, but we shall never know how.

Hola. I'm Jared. Nice to meet you
[/quote]


Well, considering the fact that I'm not a Catholic, and by your beliefs, this means I'm damned, I'd say that, at least to you, it shouldn't be seen as His Will at all. And also take into account that I will ritually disembowel myself before even thinking of becoming a Catholic.

It's nice to meet you too, Jared. I like music and Dr. Pepper.

[blovedwolfofgod]

wow this is weird...

[quote] And also take into account that I will ritually disembowel myself before even thinking of becoming a Catholic.
[/quote]
Glad to see you're keeping your options open...

Anyway, Im guessing you from the annihilationist standpoint then?

[quote]Well, considering the fact that I'm not a Catholic, and by your beliefs, this means I'm damned, I'd say that, at least to you, it shouldn't be seen as His Will at all. [/quote]
We all agree that Jesus is the door. And the doctrine of EENS. However, there is a little dispute as to where that extends. Traditionalists would tend to judge in absolutes like that.

[ChrisZewe]

[quote name='blovedwolfofgod' post='983077' date='May 16 2006, 08:53 PM']
wow this is weird...
Glad to see you're keeping your options open...

Anyway, Im guessing you from the annihilationist standpoint then?
[/quote]


Maybe...I used to be a fan of post-tribal-post-nuclear-holocaust utopia...does that count?

[frozencell]

[quote]Prayers do work, but not memorized bits of nonsense that you spew mechanically. And no, none of PM's alleged prayers had any affect on me, nor did any Catholic's. This place actually turned me away from Catholicism x.x The reason I found religion is because of the most incredible person alive on this planet, and she kindly showed me the right way. Again, not because you 'prayed'[/quote]

Wow. The Christian virtues of love, charity, etc. are just overflowing! I can almost feel your love and respect for people in a personla way through the internet. Trippy.....

[quote]We've digressed so far from my original point that it's not even funny. This always happens here - things get mixed up, and all the scholars come in and quote obscure bits of text that are irrefutable because no one has ever heard of them. At least no one on the other side. But my question now - with all the evidence above of actual fire, how is it that so many of you believe, or at least have e-screamed at me in the past, that Hell is just existence without God? I personally don't believe either, but I'm just wondering where you people are coming from.[/quote]

Hmmm. Despite popular belief, history is chalk full and made up of obscure bits of information and references that no one a lot of people don't know haven't read. Maybe that just means that you, along with others, should do some more research. And I believe all references have been provided so you can probably take some time and look them up for yourself (and any other references that may support or contradict).

On the subject of Hell, I bet it doesn't really matter. I bet it's a bad place you don't want to be. And that's pretty much enough motivation for me. Can I get an amen?!

[N/A Gone]

you know, i never thought of this, but my concept of hell or purgatory could earn me a phisy. hmm, any of the protos here read JP Moreland? and his concepts of hell know what I am talking about. hmm. Guess I have never been conficted of anything else

[rkwright]

[quote name='ChrisZewe' post='982765' date='May 16 2006, 04:32 PM']
We've digressed so far from my original point that it's not even funny. This always happens here - things get mixed up, and all the scholars come in and quote obscure bits of text that are irrefutable because no one has ever heard of them. At least no one on the other side. But my question now - with all the evidence above of actual fire, how is it that so many of you believe, or at least have e-screamed at me in the past, that Hell is just existence without God?
[/quote]


did you read the short article I posted... it answers your questions perfectly... especially in the part labeled pain of sense...

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='ChrisZewe' post='982589' date='May 16 2006, 11:46 AM']
Prayers do work, but not memorized bits of nonsense that you spew mechanically. And no, none of PM's alleged prayers had any affect on me, nor did any Catholic's. This place actually turned me away from Catholicism x.x The reason I found religion is because of the most incredible person alive on this planet, and she kindly showed me the right way. Again, not because you 'prayed'.
[/quote]


Only God Almighty knows if Our Prayers for you worked or did not work. While we prayed for you, and still shall... we prayed to The Almighty, it is He who chooses which prayers get answered and which do not. It is not Me, you, or anyone but only He who is, who was, and who is to come The Alpha and The Omega, The Almighty.

Why are you so bitter and hate-filled to your Catholic brethren? And I do not understand you protest EWTN's use of the word "spew", yet you use it here in the same way you complain EWTN of using it.

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=52555"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=52555[/url]

Edited May 17, 2006 by KnightofChrist

[Aloysius]

catholics prayed that chris zewe the athiest would become a theist
chris zewe the athiest became a theist

2 + 2 = 4

catholics prayed that chris zewe the anti-christian would become a christian
chris zewe the anti-christian became a chrisitian

2+ 2 = 4

catholics prayed that chris zewe the anti-catholic would become a catholic
chris zewe the anti-catholic became chris zewe the anti-catholic christian

2 + 2 = 5

of course, for large values of two 2 + 2 can equal five.

conclusion: chris zewe aquired cooties by liking a girl too much therefore making his 2s larger and coming up with 5.

[scardella]

I guess I'd consider cold worse than heat... but then again Louisiana's a pretty hot place...

This thread reminds me of a joke, and I probably shouldn't say it because this is the debate table...

But, on topic, I can see why you'd believe that it's literal. I can also see why you might think it is metaphorical. [b]I think, though, that physical fire or no, the primary pain is spiritual.[/b] I think that it's easy to show that ultimate suffering is that of loss. ("That is the sound of ultimate suffering..." - Inigo Montoya in [i]The Princess Bride[/i]) I could say with confidence that the vast majority of people would rather lose a limb or a sense or mobility than a spouse. In fact, many do. In my own life, the greatest pain I've endured was breaking up with my then fiancee. I would have gladly gouged out my eyes or torn off a limb if it could have saved the relationship (this is, of course, with the understanding that it would've served God's Will to do so).

Oh, and regarding being turned into sheep and goats: if I really wanted to argue it, I'd say that, perhaps God would use such an experience to humble all present; to make visible that which has been hidden. Are you a sheep or a goat?

[Theoketos]

[quote name='ChrisZewe' post='983050' date='May 16 2006, 07:44 PM']
Well, considering the fact that I'm not a Catholic, and by your beliefs, this means I'm damned, I'd say that, at least to you, it shouldn't be seen as His Will at all. And also take into account that I will ritually disembowel myself before even thinking of becoming a Catholic.

It's nice to meet you too, Jared. I like music and Dr. Pepper.
[/quote]

Two things:

Dr. Pepper is the best soft drink hands down.

And more importantly, a good Catholic can still resonably hope and have faith that even the worst sinner in the world or even myself, who comes pretty close, can go to heaven, so I see your chances as also pretty good.

I invite you to read a not so obscure document on what Catholicism really thinks about seperated brethern such as yourself.

[quote name='[i']Lumen Gentium[/i] paragraph 15]The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. [b]They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God. They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits.[i] Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power.[/i] [/b]Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ's disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.[/quote]

I really hope that you may become a real peacemaker (not coagulated milk maker or any general industrial worker). I also really sympathize with your anger at the Roman Catholic Church, we are ship of geniuses some times, but I beg you to not loose the forest for a couple of trees.

[ChrisZewe]

x.x You fail to realize, Theo, that even when I was playing at being a Catholic for a bit, I didn't believe in worshipping Mary. That's offensive to even think about. So no, your nonobscure bit of text isn't very relevant at all, if that's the key point, as it seems to be.

And I like trees...

[Jaime]

sooo

We're done with the whole hell topic then?

[ChrisZewe]

I think I said that about 11 posts ago o.O

[Jaime]

[quote name='ChrisZewe' post='983751' date='May 17 2006, 01:28 PM']
I think I said that about 11 posts ago o.O
[/quote]

Well you talked about the "overwhelming evidence"

You didn't say what it was. That would leave a few questions in my mind. Since, I really don't see any overwhelming evidence.





Incidentally, Road signs that say the distance to the town is not to the town border. Its to the first post office in the town.



DANG IT You said you didn't want scholars posting obscure things.



Sorry man

[ChrisZewe]

Semantics, friend. It always comes down to semantics.

[Jaime]

[quote name='ChrisZewe' post='983762' date='May 17 2006, 01:36 PM']
Semantics, friend. It always comes down to semantics.
[/quote]


Well I have a bit of an antisemantic streak in me so forgive me.


Seriously though

I'm curious about the whole "when its obviously a metaphor" vs "Its obvious its literal" concept. Because I don't get how that falls in line with being called to taking the bible as the literal word of God.

First are you of that belief?

and second

did you know that Wassily Kandinsky is considered the founder and chief theoretician of abstract art?



carp I was obscure again...

[ChrisZewe]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='983770' date='May 17 2006, 02:47 PM']
I'm curious about the whole "when its obviously a metaphor" vs "Its obvious its literal" concept. Because I don't get how that falls in line with being called to taking the bible as the literal word of God.

First are you of that belief?

and second

did you know that Wassily Kandinsky is considered the founder and chief theoretician of abstract art?
carp I was obscure again...
[/quote]

Well, it's obviously a metaphor...Hell in general, I mean. Or at least non-literal. I was just wondering since you guys believe that it exists and all, how you can manage to take it even remotely non-literally.

[quote]Well I have a bit of an antisemantic streak in me so forgive me.[/quote]

That was witty. Like...Cyrano-witty.

[Theoketos]

[quote name='ChrisZewe' post='983736' date='May 17 2006, 01:13 PM']
x.x You fail to realize, Theo, that even when I was playing at being a Catholic for a bit, I didn't believe in worshipping Mary. That's offensive to even think about. So no, your nonobscure bit of text isn't very relevant at all, if that's the key point, as it seems to be.

And I like trees...
[/quote]


It is relevant, at least I precieve it to be so, because you said that Catholics think, because you are just a generic Christian, that is non Catholic, that you are going to Hell. While some ignorant Catholics may think that, it is not the stance of the Church officially.

And I really think you should look into the Catholic Veneration of Mary. Worshiping Mary is indeed idolatry, and the last thing she desires of those who serve her son. Usually when people say that Catholics worship Mary, it sends up a huge red flag indicating that either they are lying or have been decieved.

(I get three points for mentioning Hell again.)

[ChrisZewe]

Praying to Mary is about the same as worshipping her. And I'm not a generic Christian -_-;;