Can non-Catholics ask the Saints for intercession?

[Guest jkcarroll]

[quote name='Andreas E.' post='990752' date='May 25 2006, 10:28 PM']
St. Dymphna is mine. As she is the patron saint of the mentally ill and family harmony (of which we need a lot right now),
[/quote]

St. Dymphna is also close to my heart, since she is also a patron of rape victims. As the father of daughters who were molested by my ex-wife's boyfriend, she is someone I've turned to for help.

To answer a question asked later in the thread St. Dymphna was an Irish princess. Her father was pagan. When her mother died, her father declared his intention to marry his daughter. She ran away, accompanied by some servants and her priest. Her father tracked her down to Belgium, by the seaside, where he murdered all her companions. When she still refused to marry him, he took his own sword and cut off his daughter's head. The bodies were left in the sand for the animals, but that night some of the locals snuck in and buried them.

Another saint you might turn to for family harmony is a Russian Orthodox saint named St. Ksenia. She was a Russian noblewoman whose husband died during a Christmas party. She disappeared for several years, and when she reappeared she had adopted the role of a "holy fool". She sold all her belongings, giving the money to the poor, and went about dressed in one of her late husband's military coats.

Two stories about her come to mind. One is when she was visiting a friend, when the friend's unmarried daughter came into the room. Ksenia became very agitated, saying, "What are you doing here? Your husband is waiting!" They left the house, and Ksenia led them to a funeral procession. A young doctor's wife and child had died, and he had fainted. Ksenia's friend and her daughter took the doctor back to their house where they helped him recover. A year later, the daughter married the doctor.

Another story, confirmed by the Tzar's secret police, who had this potential troublemaker under observation, has to do with building a church dedicated to Mary. The builders would come to work to find that bricks had already been brought up the scaffolding -- always just enough bricks that they needed for that day. After her death, it was revealed that Ksenia had been observed hauling the bricks up by herself every night, so the church would be completed quickly..

[jkaands]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='991152' date='May 26 2006, 02:23 PM']
I think I heard one time not too long ago that there were around 2000 canonized saints. Ever heard of the incorruptables. These are saints who's bodies have miraculously not decomposed. There are around 200 of these. St. John Veinny, St. Philliop Neri, Theresa the Little Flower etc. etc.. Some look as if they are just sleeping. I don't recall that Dymphnia is one of them however.
[/quote]

St.Therese of the Infant Jesus wasn't an incorruptible. She forsaw that she wouldn't be. It was part of her "ordinariness"--tho' she was far from ordinary.

When she was dug up for her beatification process, only her skeleton remained. Her arm bones came to the states.

St. Theresa of Avila was dismembered by her fellow Carmelites when she died. It was the 16th century and they were Spanish, regarded her as a saint, and loved relics!

Many of the so-called uncorrupted were merely mummified, shrivelled and blackened. The corpses of ordinary people have been found to be uncorrupted also. it's some sort of biological phenomenon not necessarily related to holiness.


[quote name='thessalonian' post='991152' date='May 26 2006, 02:23 PM']
I think I heard one time not too long ago that there were around 2000 canonized saints. Ever heard of the incorruptables. These are saints who's bodies have miraculously not decomposed. There are around 200 of these. St. John Veinny, St. Philliop Neri, Theresa the Little Flower etc. etc.. Some look as if they are just sleeping. I don't recall that Dymphnia is one of them however.
[/quote]

St.Therese of the Infant Jesus wasn't an incorruptible. She forsaw that she wouldn't be. It was part of her "ordinariness"--tho' she was far from ordinary.

When she was dug up for her beatification process, only her skeleton remained. Her arm bones came to the states.

St. Theresa of Avila was dismembered by her fellow Carmelites when she died. It was the 16th century and they were Spanish, regarded her as a saint, and loved relics!

Many of the so-called uncorrupted were merely mummified, shrivelled and blackened. The corpses of ordinary people have been found to be uncorrupted also. it's some sort of biological phenomenon not necessarily related to holiness.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='jkaands' post='1020235' date='Jul 8 2006, 08:58 PM']
Many of the so-called uncorrupted were merely mummified, shrivelled and blackened. The corpses of ordinary people have been found to be uncorrupted also. it's some sort of biological phenomenon not necessarily related to holiness.
[/quote]
There are many who are not blackened or mummified. To call it a biological phenomenon and leave it at that does not engage what is going on here.
[url="http://www.overcomeproblems.com/incorruptables.htm"]http://www.overcomeproblems.com/incorruptables.htm[/url]

Edited July 9, 2006 by thedude

[pyranima]

[quote name='Andreas E.' post='990702' date='May 25 2006, 07:20 PM']
At this point I am still "reformed."

You know, ever since I have started reading my NKJV through "Catholic" eyes, it makes a lot more sense! Bible verses that before I had a hard time understanding now just give me cause to utter a "duh!" While the Fundamentalists (of which I am still officially a part) claim that they base all their theology on a literal interpretation of the Bible, the more I look at it it's actually Catholicism that does that.
[/quote]
Can i suggest another bible for you, the Douay-Rheims Bible. the translators of the KJV used the Douay-Rheims as a referance point of their translation. you will notice many similaritys between them

[pyranima]

Evangelicals are taking up the Rosary and praying to our blessed mother, they are also taking up the divine mercy Chaplet. do any of you listen to podcasts? you dont need an ipod to listen to them their is a really great one on the saints i can suggest if you guys are interested its really well done and you learn alot about saints.

[url="http://www.jimmyakin.org/2005/11/growing_protest.html"]Protestants and mary[/url]

Edited July 9, 2006 by pyranima

[pyranima]

If you dont have Itunes or just want a quick point and click podfeeder [url="http://winpodder.com"]downlaod this[/url]

[url="http://feeds.feedburner.com/saintcast"]and here is that really good link to the podcast on saints.[/url]

Edited July 10, 2006 by pyranima

[jkaands]

[quote name='thedude' post='1020281' date='Jul 8 2006, 07:37 PM']
There are many who are not blackened or mummified. To call it a biological phenomenon and leave it at that does not engage what is going on here.
[url="http://www.overcomeproblems.com/incorruptables.htm"]http://www.overcomeproblems.com/incorruptables.htm[/url]
[/quote]

The appearance of most of the 'incorruptibles' is compatible with spontaneous mummification and of their dying in an extremely emaciated state, as Bernadette did. Most of the 'incorruptibles' are very old Italian corpses, tho' a few are from the 19th c., especially St. Catherine Laboure, St. John Vianney, and St. Bernadette. From the illustrations in the book, "The Incorruptibles", and online, and from descriptions of these corpses, they sound like spontaneous mummification, aided by emaciation and the conditions of burial. An emaciated corpse has little flesh, and very little fat; there are virtually no bowel contents, meaning many fewer bacteria. The descriptions of the corpses and the photos show extremely desiccated corpses similar to bog people, Andes mummies and Egyptian mummies. There are a lot of descriptions of darkened flesh, desiccated noses, etc. The seated body of St. Catherine of Bologna is a case in point. The items described as life-life are nails, hair and hands, which are often well-preserved in mummies. The body fat, if there is any, commonly changes to "adipocere", a fatty acid compound forming from fat after death, most common in humid climates and under water, which delays decomposition. There are often stories of the body discoloring or changing at subsequent exhumations, and finally found to have decomposed. This suggests that, as the natural circumstances preserving the body changed, the body changed.

The most persuasive case for miraculous incorruptibility is that of St. Bernadette. But her face does not resemble at all her face at the end of her life, which I saw in a biography of her. Bernadette died of tuberculosis, at age 35. She was extremely emaciated before her death. Near the end of her life, her eyes were sunken and she had an aquiline nose. She was in extreme emaciation and exhaustion. I just found a picture of her online in her coffin wearing a wreath of roses,

[url="http://www.livingmiracles.net/Incorrupt.html"]http://www.livingmiracles.net/Incorrupt.html[/url]

--which looks exactly like the picture of her taken near the end of her life. Sunken eyes, aquiline nose, no cheeks, sunken chin, small mouth. Undoubtedly her hands were also extremely emaciated. These pictures of her face just before and after her death do not resemble the face or the hands in her coffin today.

At Bernadette's first exhumation for her beatification, it was noted that her body was covered with sawdust and charcoal, which easily could have delayed deterioration. After her body was washed and re-interred, her coffin was re-opened later for her canonization and her face was observed to be discolored. Then a wax covering was applied. I suspect that that wax covering was thick enough to give her a new set of features. Ditto her hands.

There's talk about the 'miraculous' preservation of one of my favorite people, Pope John XXIII. But he was embalmed and placed in three caskets, enough to delay decomposition, certainly. The pope's body has to be embalmed, as it is put on display for several days after his death, which in this case, took place in the early fall, in Rome. John very much wanted to avoid the scandals surrounding the corse of Pius XII, and made sure that the ceremonies after his death proceeded without a hitch. Read Peter Hebblethwaite's landmark biography of John XXIII.

For more on this fascinating subject:

[url="http://www.adam.com.au/bstett/PaIncorruptibility.htm"]http://www.adam.com.au/bstett/PaIncorruptibility.htm[/url]

Bernadette after she died:

[url="http://www.livingmiracles.net/Incorrupt.html"]http://www.livingmiracles.net/Incorrupt.html[/url]

Preservation of John XXIII:

[url="http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/vennari2.html"]http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/vennari2.html[/url]

...and Wikipedia: keywords: adipocere, incorruptible, embalming. The 'embalming' section describes the treatment and resultant condition of the bodies of the recent popes.