Islam = a Roach Motel

[Lounge Daddy]

as evidenced by this local letter:
[quote]
[b] Islam or death
[/b]
I read Le Roy Barnett's letter ("Muslims, speak up," June 26) about Muslims' opinion on Abdul Rahman's conversion to Christianity.

Islam is not only a religion, it is a complete way of life. Islam guides Muslims from birth to grave. The Quran and prophet Muhammad's words and practical application of Quran in life cannot be changed.

Islam is a guide for humanity, for all times, until the day of judgment. It is forbidden in Islam to convert to any other religion. The penalty is death. There is no disagreement about it.

Islam is being embraced by people of other faiths all the time. They should know they can embrace Islam, but cannot get out. This rule is not made by Muslims; it is the supreme law of God.

Please do not ask us Muslims to pick some rules and disregard other rules. Muslims are supposed to embrace Islam in its totality.

Nazra Quraishi
East Lansing[/quote]

I posted the letter at my blog
How many understand this aspect of Islam - you can happily convert in but not out?
Isn't this the flag of a cult or a gang, and not a religion?

[Era Might]

Because, you know, Catholics were historically very welcoming of those who left the Church.

[misereremi]

I find that there is disagreement about it, there are different views on this depending on who you ask (sunni, "revert", sufi, etc) and what part of the world you live in. There should be no compulsion, according to some, and this is from the Qur'an. But I know my husband will be given a hard time for some of the things he now has come to believe, is all I can say.

I know people who have checked out of Islam, they do avoid some of their previous friends for fear of bad judgement or being persuaded to come back, but not death. I do know that bad things do happen to others, though, and I pray for whoever is facing death threats.

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1019250' date='Jul 7 2006, 12:40 PM']
Because, you know, Catholics were historically very welcoming of those who left the Church.
[/quote]

I guess I missed the international Catholic edict from any Pope, from the Bible, Catechism, or anything like this.
Who gives death to people who convert out of any religion ...other than Islam?
Did I miss some thing?
It is SICK

[Era Might]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1019936' date='Jul 8 2006, 12:18 PM']I guess I missed the international Catholic edict from any Pope, from the Bible, Catechism, or anything like this.
Who gives death to people who convert out of any religion ...other than Islam?
Did I miss some thing?
It is SICK[/quote]
How does some guy writing in to a newspaper constitute "Islam" issuing an "edict"? That's like saying Catholicism supports child molestation because an American Priest was involved with NAMBLA.

There is no Islamic Pope. Citing an opinion from a Muslim, and then acting like it's some infallible document for Islam, is highly dishonest. "Islam" doesn't do anything; it's a concept, a set of beliefs. Muslims, like Christians, believe various things, and they speak for themselves when they do speak.

As for Catholic history, we need only look to the Papal Bull "Exsurge Domine" by Pope Leo X:
[quote][We reject the proposition] that heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit.

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/L10EXDOM.HTM"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/L10EXDOM.HTM[/url][/quote]
If a Muslim came out with a statement condemning the proposition "that Christians be burned is against the will of Allah", you would pounce all over it and show how evil Islam is. But if someone said the same thing about Catholicism because of Pope Leo, you would be the first to come to its defense, say that you have to understand correctly, that it's different, whatever.

It's easy to play the "gotcha" game with people of other faiths, but it's not right, and it can be turned right back on you. We don't like it when other people vilify Catholicism and throw isolated things in our face; we shouldn't do it to other people.

Edited July 8, 2006 by Era Might

[michaelorapronobis]

That's what I was told when I investigated Islam before coming to Christ. 'For him that leaves Islam, there is only death', the man instructing me told me.

I assumed he meant it spiritually, but I have since found out that it is taken quite literally in Islamic countries. The Koran and/or Hadith (I can't remember if both do) state that if a Muslim leaves Islam, that he is to be put to death. This is the law in many Islamic countries - if a Muslim leaves Islam, they are executed.

My girlfriend is from Malaysia, and she was under the impression that the Malay people (who are all Muslims) are not allowed to convert to another religion. However, I looked this up and there is no law actually preventing them from converting, but they lose a lot of benefits if they do.

Islam is Satan's work. Satan needs these measures to keep people following him. If people get doubts and would be drawn to Christ, then he needs to make sure that they won't. We Catholics don't need anything like that, as the Truth itself keeps people in it.

Islam is the world's biggest cult. They follow a charismatic (although long-dead) leader, they are preoccupied with bringing in new members, who can join in a matter of minutes, new members are not told the truth about what they are entering, they are told they cannot leave, no-one is allowed to question their holy book, and there are other cult-like characteristics.

I thank God that I didn't take the profession of faith. I was very close to it, but God made sure I didn't.

[track2004]

We say the same thing about Catholicism though, that there is no salvation except through The Church. Islam like any faith believes it is the right one so why would it ever be okay with people leaving.

A cult is usually defined as a group that adheres to a particular set of rites, ceremonies and symbols. Some definitions include words that lean towards a cult being extreemist or unorthodox, but not all of them do. By that definition Catholicism is a cult. We have a charasmatic (long-dead) leader (Christ), we want new members, we have an iniation ceremony, we cannot tell them the whole truth about why they are entering, we tell them they will go to hell without The Church, no one can question Dogma and on and on.

[avemaria40]

[quote name='track2004' post='1021717' date='Jul 11 2006, 12:34 PM']
We say the same thing about Catholicism though, that there is no salvation except through The Church. Islam like any faith believes it is the right one so why would it ever be okay with people leaving.

A cult is usually defined as a group that adheres to a particular set of rites, ceremonies and symbols. Some definitions include words that lean towards a cult being extreemist or unorthodox, but not all of them do. By that definition Catholicism is a cult. We have a charasmatic (long-dead) leader (Christ), we want new members, we have an iniation ceremony, we cannot tell them the whole truth about why they are entering, we tell them they will go to hell without The Church, no one can question Dogma and on and on.
[/quote]

When I think of cults, I think Branch Davidians and the like, not Catholicism. Also, if you believe in Catholicism, you would believe that Christ is still very much alive, that the only time He was dead were those 3 days in the tomb. And people can question dogma, how would you expect others to understand it? and what do you mean we aren't told the whole truth about why we are entering? I'm pretty sure it was spelled out in every book, website, and piece of info I was given. I knew very well what I was getting into before converting to Catholicism, and the irony is, I can be pretty skeptical and cynical about religion and always have been. Of course I was given the whole Truth, otherwise I would have never converted. And guess what? I'm proud to be Catholic and I think it was the best decision I have ever made in my short 17 years on Planet Earth.

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='track2004' post='1021717' date='Jul 11 2006, 12:34 PM']
We say the same thing about Catholicism though, that there is no salvation except through The Church. Islam like any faith believes it is the right one so why would it ever be okay with people leaving.
[/quote]

Ok... we do not not place a death mark on people who leave

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1021764' date='Jul 11 2006, 01:15 PM']
Ok... we do not not place a death mark on people who leave
[/quote]
I am pretty sure if I were to exit the Catholic Church I would not need to worry about being killed

[Era Might]

Well, unless you traveled back in time 5 centuries.

[Aloysius]

if you traveled back in time 5 centuries you would get killed for leaving and then attempting to get everyone else to leave. in a Catholic civilization that's a crime akin to treason, and as such deserves death.

but if you left and joined some other religion and didn't bother the rest of the civilization alone, nothing was to be done to you. stuff like the inquisition was set up to catch formal heretics who were spreading distortions about the Church.

you did not get executed merely for leaving the Church. you got executed for crimes against the state such as treasonous spreading of heresies.

[Era Might]

So in a Muslim civilization, does trying to get people to become Christian deserve death, if we're gonna extend the same logic to everyone else? And since all Christians are under a command to "make disciples of all nations", then it makes sense for defection from Islam to merit death, since conversion to Christianity means seeking to make other people Christian.

According to that logic, anyway.

[Lounge Daddy]

is Islam stuck in the 15th century, then?

[Era Might]

Maybe it is. Catholicism was in the same time warp quandry well into the 19th and early 20th century.

I'll go beyond saying "maybe". Yes, I think that is the problem. The Islamic world is largely stuck, socially and religiously, in the 6th century Arabia of the prophet Muhammed. They are stuck in an Old Testament view of the world, where Justice and religious identity were very prominent. Blasphemy was a capital offense for the Jews. We would be aghast if someone were executed today for blasphemy, but it was necessary for the Jews, and that is how many Muslims still see the world.

You don't see this problem, for the most part, in American Muslims, who have been forced to make peace with modernity. Catholicism was also forced to confront modernity, and did so in large part at the Second Vatican Council.

The Islamic world CAN come to terms with the modern world, just like Christianity did. But it will take a lot of work, especially from within.

[track2004]

[quote name='avemaria40' post='1021737' date='Jul 11 2006, 11:55 AM']
When I think of cults, I think Branch Davidians and the like, not Catholicism. Also, if you believe in Catholicism, you would believe that Christ is still very much alive, that the only time He was dead were those 3 days in the tomb. And people can question dogma, how would you expect others to understand it? and what do you mean we aren't told the whole truth about why we are entering? I'm pretty sure it was spelled out in every book, website, and piece of info I was given. I knew very well what I was getting into before converting to Catholicism, and the irony is, I can be pretty skeptical and cynical about religion and always have been. Of course I was given the whole Truth, otherwise I would have never converted. And guess what? I'm proud to be Catholic and I think it was the best decision I have ever made in my short 17 years on Planet Earth.
[/quote]

You may think of the crazy cults, but technically, by definition, Catholicism could be considered a cult. Christ isn't dead, but He isn't exactly here to follow like I am or you are. People question dogma but can never disagree with it and often when I question it and make a point people can't counterpoint and just tell me it's what God said was right. Catholicism is more than what you're told coming into it, it's a life and that is just hard to adjust to sometimes. They could never explain everything that comes along with the religion, no one can about any religion. The whole Truth lies in Catholicism, but everyone just tells you that can't explain The Truth because it's a 'mystery'.

Gosh we like the capital letters a lot to differentiate words... just $.02...

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1021805' date='Jul 11 2006, 02:16 PM']
So in a Muslim civilization, does trying to get people to become Christian deserve death...
[/quote]
Actually, converting from Islam places your life in danger... and converting others from Islam in an Islamic state will [i]definitely [/i]get you a death sentence

A woman was stoned to death in Nigeria for preaching Christianity about a week ago
And a while back a Christian was almost put to death in Iraq for converting from Islam to Christian and giving Christian instruction to others, but President Bush pressured Iraq to free the man.


[quote name='Era Might' post='1022836' date='Jul 12 2006, 11:01 AM']
The Islamic world is largely stuck, socially and religiously, in the 6th century Arabia of the prophet Muhammed. They are stuck in an Old Testament view of the world, where Justice and religious identity were very prominent.
The Islamic world CAN come to terms with the modern world, just like Christianity did. But it will take a lot of work, especially from within.
[/quote]

I agree
"Justice and religious identity are very important" ...def true - so this would partly explain why in an Islamic state religious law = state law, and Islamic church IS the state

[zwergel88]

Why is everyone always angry with the Muslims? We gotta be nicer to our Middle Eastern pals.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

My parents lived in Saudi Arabia, the Muslim heartland, for twenty-five years. I was with them there for eighteen of those years. We've recently moved back to Britain.

Saudi Arabia is one of the strictest Muslim nations going. And yes, I did see (and experience!) anti-Christian discrimination there. In the last few years I was dogged by the fear of being shot dead in the street. But for all the vicious comments about 'infidels', all the bomb threats, and all the unpleasant happenings in the marketplace, I have a Muslim friend.

A lot of Muslims do not take their beliefs from the Qur'an. They take the Qur'an and shape it to justify their own beliefs. The idea that 'outside Islam, there is only death' can be interpreted to mean that all converts out of Islam ought to be killed...but that flatly contradicts the following verse from Surah Al-Kafirun:

[quote]Let there be no compulsion in religion. You go in your way, I in mine.[/quote]

The only logical way to interpret the belief that Islam is the antidote to death is to accept that that particular verse speaks of a spiritual death. The word 'Muslim' need not even refer specifically to someone who follows the Islamic religion; it just means 'one who submits'. ('Islam' itself can be translated as either peace or submission - it has components from both words.) The word 'kafir', often translated as unbeliever, literally means 'one who is ungrateful to God'. Consequently there are Muslims who argue that there are ingrates within the Islamic religion and that there are believers who follow other faiths.

Without my Muslim friends, I probably wouldn't be such a strong Catholic today. In the Muslim world it is quite common for someone to break off in the middle of a phone conversation to say, "I need to pray now. Can you call back in fifteen minutes?" God seems to get in on every conversation - Muslims pepper their speech with phrases like "Insh'Allah" (God willing), "Subhan'Allah" (God be praised), and "Astagfir'Allah" (God forgive me). Hearing all this taught me that God is important and that praying matters much more than chatting with your friends on the 'phone. Interfaith dialogue goes two ways - there is a lot we can learn from Muslims and after my experiences in the Middle East I have a tremendous level of respect for this religion.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1024462' date='Jul 14 2006, 01:36 PM']In the Muslim world it is quite common for someone to break off in the middle of a phone conversation to say, "I need to pray now. Can you call back in fifteen minutes?" God seems to get in on every conversation - Muslims pepper their speech with phrases like "Insh'Allah" (God willing), "Subhan'Allah" (God be praised), and "Astagfir'Allah" (God forgive me). Hearing all this taught me that God is important and that praying matters much more than chatting with your friends on the 'phone. Interfaith dialogue goes two ways - there is a lot we can learn from Muslims and after my experiences in the Middle East I have a tremendous level of respect for this religion.
[/quote]
Very true. I used to park at a garage nearby, and one of the attendants who worked in the booth would get on his knees every afternoon about 5 and pray. He would ignore the cars until he was finished.