Catholic Cardinal: 'no ulterior motives of conversions'

[Guest JeffCR07]

The fact that Budge and Novus Ordo Watch have somehow teamed up only serves to convince me of the truth of Catholicism even more. Its shocking the kind of bedfellows that hatred of the truth can make. Extreme protestants and extreme-traditionalist "catholics" on the same side? Look at that, Budge is engaging in ecumenism!

Pure Gold.

Edited July 10, 2006 by JeffCR07

[Budge]

While everyone here is crying about Novus Ordo Watch, as if THEY wrote the article...THEY DIDNT.

Here is the original link..

Ive come to the conclusion anything will be excused here when it comes to the breaking of the first commandment.

[url="http://www.cardinalrating.com/cardinal_26__article_4345.htm"]LINK TO ARTICLE: IT WASNT NOVUS ORDO WATCH THAT WROTE IT[/url]

Heres more links...

[url="http://www.newkerala.com/news3.php?action=fullnews&id=14198"]INDIAN NEWS ARTICLE OF SAME[/url]

[url="http://news.webindia123.com/news/Articles/India/20060626/373709.html"]ANOTHER INDIAN NEWS ARTICLE REPORTING THE SAME THING[/url]

Whoops doesnt look like BLAMING NOVUS ORDO WATCH is going to work here!

You all love those rabbit trails dont you.

If a non-Catholic posts something we cant answer, attack the messenger, question the source.

The novus ordo watch people are even as much confused as you are, their problem is THEY KNOW the Catholic Church is anything but Christian and still stay within.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Budge' post='1021233' date='Jul 10 2006, 02:58 PM']
While everyone here is crying about Novus Ordo Watch, as if THEY wrote the article...THEY DIDNT.[/quote]Not everyone is "crying" about Novus Ordo Watch. Neither do any of the posts indicate that the Novus Ordo Watch actually authored the article--this sounds like a red herring. On the other hand, Budge, [i]you [/i] chose to mention that your source was the Novus Ordo Watch archive.

I'll restate my question to you: should the archbishop of Mumbai withhold Christian charity from non-Christians until they offer some hint of an openness to conversion?

If your answer is "no," then I'd expect you to at least partially retract your attack on the Cardinal. If the answer is "yes," then I hope you would re-read chapter 25 of the Gospel of St. Matthew.

[dUSt]

Budge,

Please look up the word "ulterior". The Cardinal is simply saying that any conversion attempts will not be deceptive in nature.

Obviously, deception is not a great enemy of yours, judging by the manner of which you make your claims. You titled this thread "Cardinal says it's okay to stay Hindu", yet, none of your "proof" has even came close to backing this up.

[Akalyte]

I suggest you close these thread. They may or may not be true, but they can still do harm to the readers.

[dUSt]

[quote name='Akalyte' post='1021312' date='Jul 10 2006, 02:20 PM']
I suggest you close these thread. They may or may not be true, but they can still do harm to the readers.
[/quote]
Only if Budge is allowed to post without faithful Catholics debunking his false claims. I think we have done a good job of refuting him so far, which is what dialogue is all about. Standing up and battling for the Church and Jesus Christ.

Budge seeks to destroy the Truth found in Christ, and persuade people to believe in his own personal distorted view of the Gospel. We cannot let this happen.

I say this in full view of Budge, so he knows that my intentions are not "ulterior". If he ever read anything from the church in regards to proclaiming Christ to the world, he would realize that this is the Church's stance as well.

[Budge]

Talk about a weasle word to CANCEL out converting folks. That word ULTERIOR doesnt cover any of this.

Did the apostles go around preaching, "Oh dont offend anyone"?

I think its totally SAD, how you folks saw nothing wrong with this Cardinal [except one guy] with burning incense to a pagan spirit.

The spiritual blindess here is so bad.



[quote]
Budge seeks to destroy the Truth found in Christ, and persuade people to believe in his own personal distorted view of the Gospel. We cannot let this happen.[/quote]

I believe the gospel should be preached, that MEANS USING WORDS and to all the world and to anyone a Christian comes in contact with.

Apparently you folks dont.

[quote]I suggest you close these thread. They may or may not be true, but they can still do harm to the readers.[/quote]

[img]http://talks.php.net/presentations/slides/debugging/evil.jpg[/img]

Edited July 10, 2006 by Budge

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='dUSt' post='1021283' date='Jul 10 2006, 03:43 PM']Obviously, deception is not a great enemy of yours, judging by the manner of which you make your claims. You titled this thread "Cardinal says it's okay to stay Hindu", yet, none of your "proof" has even came close to backing this up.[/quote]I notice this a lot when reading anti-Catholic material. In order to "win" an argument, they will leave truth and resort to calumny. How can bearing false witness possibly be used as a means to defend a religion which prohibits bearing false witness?

I'd like to see the quote where the Cardinal says it's okay to stay a Hindu.

[Socrates]

This thread is a farce. Does Budge even know the meaning of "ulterior motive"? All the cardinal is saying is that the various humanitarian projects to help the people of India are to be done for their own sake, regardless of whether people convert. This is quite different than saying that people should NOT convert to Christ.

Should corporal works of mercy be dependent on whether or not people convert?
For instance, should we only feed a starving man if he is Christian, or on the condition that he promises to to become Christian?

Corporal works of mercy - helping our neighbor - is good in itself. It need not be done for the purpose of conversion. Conversion need not be tied into the giving of material aid.

[dUSt]

[quote]I believe the gospel should be preached, that MEANS USING WORDS and to all the world and to anyone a Christian comes in contact with.

Apparently you folks dont.[/quote]
Your right. We believed the Gospel should be preached AND lived.

And please be more specific when you say gospel. It would be more accurate for you to say "my interpretation of the gospel" should be preached.

The church helps us interpret the gospel Budge, and when you reject it, all you can do is rely on your own human inadequicies.

Oh, and I'm still trying to find the source of that picture you posted. If you can help me out, I'd appreciate it. With no credible source, it might as well be Photoshoped.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Here is the paper from that day. I cannot find anything about the Cardinal but you can take a look. There is a US version of the publication but it does not have archives back to 1997.
[url="http://www.indianexpress.com/res/web/pIe/ie/daily/19971006/front.html"]http://www.indianexpress.com/res/web/pIe/i...1006/front.html[/url]

[Laudate_Dominum]

based on the history of church-state relations in India (a state that is basically Hindu) it makes sense that the Cardinal would say this. There have been controversies and even killings in India over the common belief that the Church in India represents a foreign invasion.

In some countries the Church has to walk a thin line to avoid persecution. In many countries it is illegal for Christians to evangelize and there are even a few countries in which you can be killed for doing so (we've all heard of Muslim states where converts can be legally slain). India isn't that bad, but there are still many who view the Church with suspicion and see it as a threatening invader. Never mind the fact that the Church has been in India since apostolic times.

It is just that India's identity is largely Hindu (of course there are also Muslims, Jains, Sikhs, Buddhists and others), the population is at least 80% Hindu and Christianity is seen as a Western religion.

And I'm sure India's history of dealings with the west has contributed to this. It wasn't really that long ago that India was subjugated by a foreign western power (Britain), this always leaves a residue of hostility.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Here are a few of the reasons why the Cardinal likely said what he said:

[quote]The Bharatiya Janatha Party (BJP) is the Hindu nationalist coalition government. Since the group came to power there has been an increase in persecution and opposition of minorities, especially Christians. The BJP is an offshoot of the extremist RSS (see Extemist Groups below). Prime Minister Vajpayee is a member of the BJP. However, Vajpayee has reportedly called for religious tolerance and spoken out against the persecution of Christians.


In November 1999 Orissa State (where [b]missionary Graham Staines and his two sons were killed[/b]) passed an order [b]prohibiting religious conversions without the prior permission of local police and district magistrates[/b]. The person wishing to convert must explain his/her reasons to the police who then collect information from neighbors and friends. Police draw up a report, which is passed on to the district magistrates [b]who may grant or withhold permission[/b].


Low caste Hindus who convert to Christianity lose their eligibility for affirmative action while those who become Buddhists, Jains, or Sikhs do not because these faiths are included under the definition of Hindu in the Constitution. Affirmative action is often necessary in order for lower caste members to receive good jobs as discrimination on the basis of caste still exists.


[b]Since the mid-1960s the government has refused to admit new foreign resident missionaries[/b]. Missionaries must thus enter the country with a short- term tourist visa. In March 1999 it was reported that the government was refusing to renew these visas.


Missionaries and religious organizations must comply with the Foreign Contribution Regulation Act (FCRA) which restricts funding from abroad and therefore the ability of some organizations to finance their activities.


Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) – a Hindu religious organization affiliated with the RSS. On September 30, 1998 the Secretary of the VHP warned Christian missionaries to get out of India. In December of the same year the VHP announced that it would [b]launch a campaign to stop missionaries from converting Hindus to Christianity[/b].


Sangh Parivar – the extreme fanatical [b]group that murdered missionary Graham Staines [/b] and his sons. It [b]controls much of Gujarat and Uttar Pradesh states[/b].


March 26, 2003 - The Gujurat Freedom of Religion Bill was passed in the State Assembly. [b]The bill bans religious conversions by coercion[/b] and stipulates a prison sentence of up to three years and a fine of 50,000 rupees for being involved in a forcible conversion. The law further states that [b]all conversions must be registered and accepted by the District Magistrate[/b]. Failure to register a conversion is liable to a fine or up to one year in prison. (ANS)

The governor of Tamil Nadu, P S Ramamohan Rao, issued [b]an ordinance banning religious conversions by "fraudulent means" or "forcible allurement[/b]." The punishment for violating the ordinance is up to 3 years imprisonment and/or a fine up to Rs. 50,000. All religious conversions must also be reported to district authorities according to the ordinance. The new ordinance does not bode well for Christi[b]ans, who are commonly accused of using coercion to produce converts because they offer food and medical care to the poor[/b]. Hindu fundamentalist groups are happy with the new ordinance and hope other states will adopt similar legislation.


A few samples of stuff that happens over there:

March 12, 2003 - Hindus attacked and damaged a Protestant Church in Maharashtra after church members refused to re-convert to Hinduism.

February 2003 - A. Anthony, a Roman Catholic priest, was robbed at gunpoint in Chintalapudi by Hindu extremists.

February 18, 2003 - An Indian evangelist and several of his team members were beaten while showing the Jesus film in Jharkhand. Twenty-six-year-old Titus was strangled, punched, and beaten with sticks until he passed out. Christian friends carried him to their house where an angry crowd later gathered to demand that Titus renounce his faith. He was beaten again when he refused to deny Christ. Currently the village leaders are refusing to return Titus's video equipment without a ransom and have demanded that he and two Christian families from the village provide food for 2,000 village people for two days. Village leaders may be plotting a way to force the two Christian families to return to an animist faith. (Gospel for Asia)

February 2003 - Compass Direct reported that a list of at least 50 missionaries has been given to Indian authorities by the VHP, in hopes that they will be deported on visa violations such as the one used against Joseph Cooper.
Missionary Joseph Cooper (see January 13, 2002 below) was ordered to leave the country within a week after being released from the hospital in Trivandrum. Police Superintendent Vinod Kumar said Mr. Cooper had violated the terms of his vistor's visa by preaching.
seph Cooper, a 67-year-old missionary from Pennsylvania was attacked by Hindu fanatics outside of Trivandrum in Kerala. Cooper was beaten with sticks and cut with a machete as he was returning from a church meeting. Indian pastor Benson Sam and his wife also sustained injuries in the attack. Cooper was taken to a Trivandrum hospital where he is being treated for a deep wound to his right palm and other cuts and bruises. RSS activists are believed to have been responsible.

December 25, 2002 - A Catholic church in Malipota, near the India-Bangladesh border was [b]attacked during midnight mass[/b]. A priest and several others were injured as the attackers threw bombs at the church, forcing at least 1200 worshippers from the building. The Catholics were then robbed of their personal possessions, including wristwatches.

December 6, 2002 - More than 9,500 Dalits wishing to convert to Christianity and be baptized were turned back by police in Chennai. Several people were beaten and 11 people who helped organize the mass conversion ceremony were arrested in connection with Tamil Nadu's new law against "forcible" conversions. Chairs set up for the event were also destroyed and various human rights violations were reported

December 3, 2002 - A Christian worker and four Bible school students were eating dinner in Sauncer Taluka, Madhya Pradesh, when they were attacked by a group of 50-60 people armed with sticks. Some members of the crowd shouted, "We will burn you alive, and whichever village you will go, you will be beaten up there also." When the Christians reported the attack to local police they were accused of converting people.

A local pastor and three Operation Mobilization workers were beaten in Goa after showing the Jesus film in a family home. The men were attacked by a mob of about 30 people as they were sitting down to eat with the family, who had been very receptive to the film. The mob also damaged a vehicle used by the Christian workers.

Hindu militants punctured the tires of Pastor VM Samuel's vehicle while he was visiting another Christian's home in Udupi, Karnataka. When the pastor attempted to change the tires, an angry mob of RSS activists beat him and four other men. The mob also damaged a vehicle belonging to one of the Christians. Local police refused to register the case. All four men were hospitalized.

September 22, 2002 - Eight Korean missionaries in Bihar State were beaten during worship services by members of the Bajrang Dal, a militant youth organization

August 2002 - A group opposed to the construction of a church building in Maharashtra state burned church materials, including corrugated sheets of metal, during the middle of the night. The building materials had just been purchased with a special fund raised by church members.

July 29, 2002 - The Bharatiya Janata Party, India's ruling political party, has gone public with their anti-Christian agenda. BJP [b]vice president, Kailashpati Mishra, accused Christian missionaries [/b] of provoking large scale violence in the North Indian state of Jharkhand. In a separate incident, a BJP member presided at a mass conversion ceremony where 400 tribal Christians were reconverted to Hinduism.

July 23, 2002 - A secret 4 page circular is being circulated among extremist Hindus. It calls for a "[b]terror campaign to be waged against [/b] tribals, backward castes, Muslims, and [b]Christians[/b]." The circular gives detailed instructions on [b]how to terrorize and ethnically cleanse India from these people groups[/b]. [b]It calls for rape, riots, assassinations, infecting of infants to create handicap, and the poisoning of food and liquor. [/b] Propaganda is strategically being spread through the media. The instructions at the end of the circular say, "this paper is to be burned and destroyed after passing the instructions along."

July 18, 2002 - Sister Vrishi Ekka, a Catholic Ursuline nun 56 years of age, was sentenced to 6 months imprisonment for converting Hindus to Christianity. Christian Schools closed in protest and Hindu fundamentalists groups retaliated staging protest marches outside the schools. The court deemed the schools actions as provocative and said the Christian organizations have no business protesting the verdict.

June 16, 2002 - 143 Christians from the Oram, Munda, and Khadia tribes were "reconverted" to Hinduism in a ceremony in Tainser village organized by the VHP. Church leaders have protested these reconversions, noting that the tribals followed indigenous beliefs before becoming Christians; they were never Hindus. This is only one of many reconversion drives being carried out by the VHP, which is known to use violence and intimidation.

June 12, 2002 - Gladys Staines' husband, Australian missionary Graham Staines, and her two sons were burned to death by a mob of Hindu fundamentalists. On June 12, Gladys made her first appearance at the district court of Orissa and told her testimony. She "faced hostile questioning on her role in using the Leprosy Mission to convert people to Christianity." Disturbed by the testimonies, Hindu fundamentalists are working to save prime suspect Dara Singh, hero in the Hindu belt of Orissa.

May 26, 2002 - The family of a Christian pastor was attacked and beaten up by a gang of 10-12 Hindus in Jharkhand.

April 2002 - A Christian pastor in Orissa State is being taken to court for allegedly producing forced conversions. Rev. Niranjan Bardham is being accused by a Hindu fundamentalist group, w[b]hich claims he gives food and education to poor children to lure them into the Christian faith[/b]. Twenty-two children benefiting from Bardham's ministry have become Christians in R. Sitapur and Katalakaitha villages.

April 22, 2002 - Indian Christians claim the VHP is conducting re-conversion ceremonies in West Bengal and forcing Christians to abandon their faith to re-embrace Hinduism. At least 16 tribal Christians were forced to participate in a Hindu purification ceremony in Chopra village. Over the past month an estimated 300 people have been affected by the re-conversion campaign.

April 14, 2002 - The New Life Fellowship Church in Moodabidari, Karnataka was attacked by about 60 armed Hindu militants. The church was attacked because some Hindu young people in the area were attracted to Christianity.

March 26, 2002 - A Christian man was beaten up by an anti-Christian mob in Badaga village. Brother Raman died on Easter morning as a result of the injuries incurred during this beating.

February 8, 2002 - A group of Christians gathering at a new convert's home in Nagpur, Maharashtra state were attacked by a mob of over 500 people, who threw stones at the Christians and threatened to burn them alive. The local police chief refused to help the Christians but instead warned them to quit their evangelistic activities. The church is being targeted by Hindu fundamentalists because of its bold outreach and the number of Hindus converting to the Christian faith through their ministry.

September 11, 2001 – 113 Christians were forced to denounce Christ and yield to Hinduism by the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP), in Orissa state.

August 27, 2001 – A pastor and his congregation were attacked by Hindu activists in the village of Badadra, in Alirajpur Taluka, Madhya Pradesh.

August 27, 2001 – A chapel was razed by pro-Hindu tribals in Mehndikheda, in the Jhabua district of Madhya Pradesh

August 25, 2001 – Three Catholic nuns were beaten with sticks and cudgels by Hindu fundamentalists in the Dahou town of Gujarat state.

August 21, 2001 – Catholic church leaders met with chiefs of the Rashtriya Swayamsewak Sangh (RSS), the Hindu fundamentalists, in response to a recent rumor of falsely reported “forcible conversions” by Christians, and attacks of Hindu fundamentalists on Christians. RSS denied the attacks, and promised a thorough probe into the matter.

August 15, 2001 – India’s Prime Minister, Atal Behari Vajpayee told a gathering, “There is a conversion motive behind the welfare activities being carried out by some Christian missionaries in the country’s backward areas and it is not proper, though conversion is permissible under the law.” Vajpayee’s comments seemed to have spurred a rage of violence against Christians, especially in the last 10 days of August.

August 13, 2001 – A nun and missionary were attacked by Hindu fundamentalists in Pipalwada village, in south Gujarat.

June 2001 – Around 60 families from a certain district of Orissa State were forced to flee their homes after repeated threats against their lives and property from extremist elements.

May 15, 2001 – Members of an insurgent group known as the People’s Liberation Army, shot and killed three priests in Ngarian, Manipur state. Pali Akara Raphael, Andreas Kindo and Shinu Joseph Valliparampil were shot at after they refused to give protection money to the insurgents. The same group has demanded that Catholic schools across the state pay them "taxes" or risk being bombed.

May 8, 2001 – Two bombs exploded inside a Roman Catholic Church in Muzaffarpur, Bihar state. A note found at the scene said "Stop conversion under pretext of social service. India is a Hindu nation. Christians leave India." A Muslim religious school was also burned on the same day.

April 28, 2001 – Ten men were sentenced to life in prison after being found guilty of gang raping four nuns in 1998. This decision is significant for Christians because Hindus are seldom punished for crimes against Christians and other religious minorities.

February 2001 – Christian aid workers in Gujarat reported that Hindus have been hindering their efforts to help victims of the earthquake in Ahmedabad. A Catholic priest, Father Cedric Prakash, said he was chased away by people with sticks and told to "get out." Apparently the RSS is trying to dominate the relief efforts. Gujarat has had the most incidences of persecution against Christians in the country.

January 4, 2001 -- Two priests were beaten in Jaher Village, Gujarat. David Masih and Simon Sakria were attending a prayer meeting when 40 to 50 armed men stormed the meeting, beating the priests and then abducting them. David Masih was later hospitalized. Simon Sakria remains missing.

November 27, 2000 – At Piplipura church a 64-year-old priest was attacked by a mob wielding iron rods and sticks. Father C. Alphonse is currently hospitalized due to injuries sustained in the attack.

Novermber 26, 2000 – 200 gun-toting members of the RSS and VHP forcibly entered the Evangelical Church of India in Chindia, Gujarat. The group destroyed the church’s cross and placed Hindu idols in the sanctuary, apparently in an attempt to take control of the church.

November 26, 2000 – St. Mary’s convent in the Jwalapur district of Uttar Pradesh was attacked by armed Hindu extremists. In a separate incident Christian evangelists were stoned by Hindus in Kolar, Karnataka.

November 5, 2000 – Seven members of the Friends Missionary Prayer Band were thrashed by villagers at Raigad, Vyara Taluk, in Gujarat.

October 13-15, 2000 – At the 75th Anniversary celebration of the RSS, leaders warned the nearly 75,000 people gathered there about the threat of Christianity, a religion they described as foreign-dominated and funded. Christians and Muslims were criticized for abandoning their Hindu heritage and standing in the way of Hinduvta, the creation of a Hindu state.

September 12, 2000 – A Christian preacher was beheaded in Karimnagar. Unidentified assailants struck Mr.Yesu Dasu in the neck with an axe several times before he died.

August 28, 2000 -- Two missionaries were kidnapped from their home by fanatical RSS members. The husband and wife were taken to an undisclosed location where they were told to denounce Christianity and become propagators of the Hindu faith. When they refused, the husband was beaten unconscious. Even after being offered a substantial amount of money to recant her faith, the wife still refused and was also beaten. The couple’s unconscious bodies were found the next day in a forest and taken to a hospital for medical care.

July 30, 2000 – Three men attempted to kidnap Sister Celine John in New Delhi. The men covered her face with a sheet and forced her into their van. The nun was able to escape when the van stopped briefly to pick up an accomplice.

July 25, 2000 – Catholic priest Father Victor Crasta, and three missionaries were killed when a militant group opened fire on them in Balucherra, north Tripura district.

July 14, 2000 – A Catholic priest was murdered after being robbed.

July 7, 2000 – Bajrang Dal activists attacked a priest and a nun who were distributing bags of wheat to drought affected areas. The Dal accused the Catholics of trying to lure Hindus to Christianity by giving them food. When the missionaries refused to stop the distribution of wheat, they were attacked and 144 bags of wheat were looted.

June 15, 2000 – A priest was beaten for his role in religious conversions. The incident occurred in Vishrampuri in Jagdalpur district where the priest had his head shaved and was paraded through the village by the gang of youths who attacked him.
[/quote]

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='dUSt' post='1021521' date='Jul 10 2006, 09:18 PM']
Oh, and I'm still trying to find the source of that picture you posted. If you can help me out, I'd appreciate it. With no credible source, it might as well be Photoshoped.
[/quote]
Yeah, I used to see the same old "scandalous" pictures of JP2 on both anti-catholic protestant sites and rad trad sites, what was funny to me is that they would often have different insane captions at the bottom which kind of smells of bull carp to me.

I remember one caption saying that the Pope was being annointed into the Shiva adorers or some nonsense and another caption saying that he was getting the sign of Krishna on his forehead or something. It turns out it was just a customary way of greeting an honored guest in India and had nothing to do with worshipping Hindu gods.

The point is dUSt is right on. I would want to be absolutely sure before I went around publically proclaiming that a prince of the Church is an idol worshipper.

[avemaria40]

[quote name='Budge' post='1021156' date='Jul 10 2006, 12:41 PM']
What is wrong with just helping people out and preaching the gospel at the same time whether they accept it or reject it?

Only a church that considers the gospel to be OF OFFENSE, isntead of life changing and of true salvation in Jesus Christ would silence its workers out of some misguided endeavor to placate those who are of other religions.

Oh and youre ok with him doing an act of homage to Ganesha, Christians were MARTYRED for refusing to burn incense to the Roman emperor...cant you see what your Cardinal Just DID?

You poor people really have been led into delusions.
[/quote]

I am not deluded, I chose this Faith and I was [b]very[/b] skeptical about religion (even though I always wanted it in my life) for most of my life. I really don't know what this Cardinal really was doing so I can't make an act of judgment on him. However, [b]everyone[/b] sins, including people in the clergy, high positions do not equate a sinless person. Also, I do help people out and try to preach the gospel but it takes more than just words. And people have to know that their beliefs are respected before they start thinking about another religion. We focus first on what we have in common, then show them where our beliefs differ and why they should be Catholic. You cannot blame one billion people for what one person does, I don't care what position they have in the clergy, they are still human and capable of any sin like the rest of us. Are their actions unjust? Yes, and we should stand up against them. However, do not blame the Catholic Church for something one person does and study it more, you might be surprised at how seriously we take the gospel and salvation in Jesus Christ