Satanism

[Budge]

well Im glad you answered my questions.

Some others here were assuming you were a Catholic.

There many Catholics dabbling in New Age and even Wicca, here is a catholic written book that warns about that.

[img]http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/089283756X.01._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_AA240_SH20_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg[/img]
A

Im afraid that you probably wont hear the real truth about witchcraft here, so yes I didnt beat around the bush, I came out and told you what witchcraft is. I used to a member of one of the most pagan churches on earth--dabbling in Wicca myself. Nothing you are telling me about your spellcasting or rest is anything new. I know Wiccan and paganism personally draws in MANY YOUNG PEOPLE, especially today as people have departed from God, and young people are brought up with no Biblical foundation.

And no you dont know what youre dealing with because the ENERGY that you speak of...

this is Satan hissing in your ear just like Adam and Eve, offering them "power too" and to be as god....

This energy you speak of... [quote]I have felt and experienced the energy coursing through me. [/quote] is not of a natural source it is of a supernatural source, it is of Satan or one of his demons. Remember in the Bible, there were magicians and witches too, and they always came under the condemnation of God. This doesnt mean you cannot repent as I did. One can become completely free in Jesus Christ even of witchcraft and repent of these past sins.

I was drawn into the occult by age 12 by a book called the [i]POWER OF WITCHCRAFT[/i]. Yvonne and Gavin Frost, nothing you talk about is anything new. All the power of witchcraft, both black and white magic, comes from the same source.

Im going to be blunt with you, witchcraft will bring evil into your life, the deeper you go the more it will bring pain, even sickness and destruction. You are open to demonic forces that will use you to their own advantage.

You can choose to ignore my warnings or not. That will be your choice, but it is your eternal soul at risk. I am not doing this to "win", Im doing it because I dont want another person going to hell because of the lies theyve been told.

I doubt the folks here who are more focused on being politically correct, will tell you the truth. They couldnt even discern that an occultist was in their midst. It seems for the average guy the statement "Blessed Be" would be enough...

Here is a site for you to go to, check out some of the essays...

[url="http://www.exwitch.org/mambo/index.php"]EX WITCH MINISTRIES[/url]


[size=5]
"There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,[/size] Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee. Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God." -Deuteronomy 18:10-13

[url="http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Wicca%20&%20Witchcraft/wicca_witchcraft.htm"]READ ARTICLE ABOUT WICCA HERE[/url]

[DAF]

Budge, did it ever occur to you that perhaps your agressiveness is turning people away from Jesus? That's been my experience with your type. Don't mean to generalize, but it's just what I've seen.

Lahecil, while I may not approve of what you're doing, and am genuinely worried for you, I appreciate your honesty and openness to learning about the Catholic Faith. I really wish (and pray) that all occultists were as level headed as you seem to be. You'll be in my prayers!

[Budge]

As I said in the above, too many of you are more concerned about being politically correct then you are about warning anyone in the occult.

Some see the gospel and those who warn folks of the reality of hell as "offensive".

Im glad someone warned me and told me the truth... and I did my Christian duty warning her...if you think thats a BAD thing, I cant help you there.

[size=5]Gal 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?[/size]

[Socrates]

No one can be at the same time a faithful Catholic and a Wiccan. The Catholic Church has always condemned the practices of all forms of paganism and sorcery.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

[quote]2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to "unveil" the future. Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.

2117 All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one's service and have a supernatural power over others - even if this were for the sake of restoring their health - are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another's credulity.[/quote]

Budge, maybe it's time you payed some attention to what the Catholic Church actually teaches, rather than what you wrongly claim it teaches. Your persistant misrepresentation of the Church is not helping your purpose any, and just makes you look bad. Even your good protestant brother "jesuspaidtheprice" said that you've made an ass of yourself on here.

[quote]I doubt the folks here who are more focused on being politically correct, will tell you the truth. They couldnt even discern that an occultist was in their midst.[/quote]
This little dig was completely uncalled for. Many of us here want nothing to do with being "politically correct."

[DAF]

[quote]As I said in the above, too many of you are more concerned about being politically correct then you are about warning anyone in the occult.

Some see the gospel and those who warn folks of the reality of hell as "offensive".

Im glad someone warned me and told me the truth... and I did my Christian duty warning her...if you think thats a BAD thing, I cant help you there. [/quote]

I don't think I appreciate your obnoxiousness. I was trying to be charitable with you and clearly you're unable to restrain your sarcasm.

I was merely saying that your agressive approach to proselytization is probably doing more harm than good, no matter where your intentions may be. I was not being malicious, simply offering constructive criticism.

On a personal note, I think you're a very unpleasant human being.

[Justified Saint]

[quote name='Budge' post='1023842' date='Jul 13 2006, 03:21 PM']

Some others here were assuming you were a Catholic.

[/quote]

You were the one who erroneously remarked that she said she was a Catholic.

[quote]Budge, did it ever occur to you that perhaps your agressiveness is turning people away from Jesus? That's been my experience with your type. Don't mean to generalize, but it's just what I've seen.[/quote]

My problem with someone like Budge isn't so much his/her zeal, but their general level of ignorance, though I don't doubt that the two are related (i.e. one makes up their lack of knowledge through zeal).

For example, in this instance we are to believe that Budge is suppose to be some expert on witchcraft because he/she read a book at 12 and became a Wiccan. I have reason to suspect that this is a kind of self-proclaimed expertise because of his/her woeful understanding of Catholicism.

[Budge]

Justified Saint, every post you put up is Catholic Apologist technique #3...

Another know-it-all who considers calling others "ignorant" successful debate who only shows themselves never able to actually deal with the issues at hand and WHO ALWAYS without hesistation turns the topic personal to the messenger?

So are you going to warn her about witchcraft or continue your attacks on the messenger?

Three of you, all mad, that someone would dare speak out against witchcraft and warning a woman against witchcraft...

thats sad...

Dont see any of the rest of you stepping up to warn her.

Youre all outraged because youre so indoctrinated into PCness, you are horrified that someone may preach Christianity against the Universalist gospel.

You have to prove youre all one happy unified family even with occultists.

[quote]
No one can be at the same time a faithful Catholic and a Wiccan. The Catholic Church has always condemned the practices of all forms of paganism and sorcery.
[/quote]

I dont see any condemnation here, just intense lukewarmness and anger at a woman who would dare warn someone away from witchcraft. I suppose this means youre not following that "official" teaching.

The rest of you arent any help to her whatsoever.

Edited July 14, 2006 by Budge

[DAF]

Okay, I'll warn her, Budge style: "You're going to Hell unless you accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior. Here, read this piece of grabage website. Oh, here's a Bible verse. Let that marinate." How'd I do?

What I'm trying to convey is that the way you're doing it, the more effort you give the more it's going to turn her off. It's self defeating. I say that in love and humility.

I don't think JS was being self righteous, he was being honest. Frankly I think you're ignorant too.



[quote]Youre all outraged because youre so indoctrinated into PCness, you are horrified that someone may preach Christianity against the Universalist gospel.[/quote]
Budge, I think you're blinded by your hatred for what you've deemed to be the Whore of Babylon (the Church) or maybe you're just honestly in the dark, probably a little of both.

We've been open to what you've said, and I think most of us have been very charitable. I think it would only be proper for you to try to extend some courtesy.

[quote]I dont see any condemnation here[/quote]
Clearly you're not looking.

Edited July 14, 2006 by DAF

[Budge]

Youre being dishonest becuase that is not how I warned her.

I shared my own personal experience and more.

You all can focus on how "mean" I am instead of even attempting to warn a young girl about witchcraft but I do see that as the cowards way out.

[DAF]

Budge, you're missing the point. I'm offering you advice for future proselytization and you're cloaking it as dancing around the truth.

It's true that she shouldn't be getting into wicca and the occult, but she's not going to listen to anybody who just patronizes her.

I don't think you're mean, just agressively ignorant. That's not necessarily an insult (it's not meant to be anyway), it's just what I think you are.

Anyway, picking on budge isn't the purpose of this thread, so let's talk about the occult.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Budge' post='1023944' date='Jul 13 2006, 06:08 PM']
Justified Saint, every post you put up is Catholic Apologist technique #3...

Another know-it-all who considers calling others "ignorant" successful debate who only shows themselves never able to actually deal with the issues at hand and WHO ALWAYS without hesistation turns the topic personal to the messenger?

So are you going to warn her about witchcraft or continue your attacks on the messenger?

Three of you, all mad, that someone would dare speak out against witchcraft and warning a woman against witchcraft...

thats sad...

Dont see any of the rest of you stepping up to warn her.

Youre all outraged because youre so indoctrinated into PCness, you are horrified that someone may preach Christianity against the Universalist gospel.

You have to prove youre all one happy unified family even with occultists.
I dont see any condemnation here, just intense lukewarmness and anger at a woman who would dare warn someone away from witchcraft. I suppose this means youre not following that "official" teaching.

The rest of you arent any help to her whatsoever.
[/quote]
No one is angry at you for "warning against witchcraft." The problem is your slander of the Church as being somehow supportive of witchcraft (which I have clearly shown to be false).
You come in, accuse Catholics of condoning witchcraft, then, when people offer constructive criticism of the tone of your posts, you accuse everyone here of being motivated by love for witchcraft and P.C. universalism. This is nonsense and you know it. Your methods are a farce. This isn't about "warning against witchcraft" - it's about slandering the Church.
Anyway, I think I've wasted enough of my time with your foolishness.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='Budge' post='1023518' date='Jul 13 2006, 07:19 AM']
One thing Catholics ignore is how the Bible warns about Satanists and agents of Satan appearing as angel of light or "ministers of righteousness"
[/quote]
With all charity, this is not true. The Church is ridiculed and called ignorant for its rites of exorcism. John Paul II performed a few during his pontificate and even said that to not believe in Satan is to not believe in the Gospel.

[Justified Saint]

[quote name='Budge' post='1023944' date='Jul 13 2006, 05:08 PM']
Justified Saint, every post you put up is Catholic Apologist technique #3...

Another know-it-all who considers calling others "ignorant" successful debate who only shows themselves never able to actually deal with the issues at hand and WHO ALWAYS without hesistation turns the topic personal to the messenger?

So are you going to warn her about witchcraft or continue your attacks on the messenger?

Three of you, all mad, that someone would dare speak out against witchcraft and warning a woman against witchcraft...

thats sad...

Dont see any of the rest of you stepping up to warn her.

Youre all outraged because youre so indoctrinated into PCness, you are horrified that someone may preach Christianity against the Universalist gospel.

You have to prove youre all one happy unified family even with occultists.
I dont see any condemnation here, just intense lukewarmness and anger at a woman who would dare warn someone away from witchcraft. I suppose this means youre not following that "official" teaching.

The rest of you arent any help to her whatsoever.
[/quote]

I see nothing wrong with my approach, or that of others. You're arguments are hastily conceived, over-generalized, and fallacious as others have constantly shown. You have already made it clear that you aren't here to dialogue but rather to hand out condemnations and judgments. Therefore, you should be treated for what you are: a troll.

I am afraid that you are a messenger without a message. Thus in the words of the Bard, you are sound and fury signifying nothing.

DAF,

"Aggressively ignorant", I love it!! :

[cmotherofpirl]

Ok [i]everyone[/i] mind your manners here.

Budge since you are not catholic and do not understand Catholic teaching, how can you effectively
correct the Church?

The opinions you have brought forth so far are not catholic teaching but little bits of this and that, but nothing for anyone to really discuss or pay attention to. Lots of fluff, not real substance.

Would it not be better for you to simply bring up a point you don't understand, sit back, take a deep breath, and listen for awhile??
You are never giong to convert anybody to anything this way, and if you are here to save our souls, its not working.

If you are going to be effective at anything you actually have to talk to people, not at people.
So why don't you start over with an actual point of CATHOLIC teaching or some belief of your own and actually discuss it??

[Lahecil]

Aaaall right then. (I got to bed for a few hours...)

The Catholic Church, and every other Christian Church that I know of, does not condone witchcraft. There are those who can combine both Christianity and Wicca in their own PERSONAL eclectic blend that they are happy with and don't feel as though they are betraying either religion...I'm not one of them.

Budge, I understand that you believe the energy comes from Satan. I disagree. I could give you a hundred exercises to do and by the time you completed them you would be aware of the energy and it's source, which is not how it is described in any Bible. Unfortunately you (and probably everyone else here, no offense meant) would brush it off as either Satanic or a bunch of New Age hogwash, so there's no point. I appreciate your warnings, but I choose to disregard them, as is my right. I bookmarked the Ex-Witch Ministry for some light fictional reading when I get home later (no, not going to a Black Mass or anything, just the beach with the family ) but not the other article, since I've already read that one. It kept me laughing for hours, but it gets old.

I'll leave the Budge vs. Everyone Else fight to continue now...*Mortal Kombat-style* Ready...FIGHT!

[Guest JeffCR07]

Lahecil, if you're even still reading this thread, I would be more than happy to talk to you about what the Catholic Church teaches and why it teaches it. You seem both honest and sincere, and I hope that I can offer the same, should we ever talk. Even if you and I disagree fundamentally on the nature of wicca, magick, and the occult, an intellectually honest conversation that is mutually respectful will always help people who are on different sides of an issue come to understand each other better.

- Jeff

[DAF]

Yeah Lahecil, I would very much enjoy something of a debate with you. Not really to prove who's better or right (even though clearly we both believe we're right, and will try to prove it) there are some things that, while won't ever believe them, I am genuinely interested to know what a 'wiccan' believes on various issues, I'm sure others would agree with me.

JS:

Also, why don't you get your boyfriend on here. He's a Catholic, he'd find a nice home here. And he seems like a good guy.

Edited July 14, 2006 by DAF

[Lahecil]

PM me any time folks! *tapes up fists* (Just kidding! )

I'd love to get my boyfriend on here, but he works three days a week, and his family, friends, and your's truly take up the other four days...not to mention he's gonna buy World of Warcraft! There goes his nice tan...I will most definitely ask him though.