RomeOPhobic

[Anomaly]

Why do Cathos gloss over the 'bad' Popes, Bishops, and Priests and allow them human foibles, but everything that Luther had to say is discounted?

[Era Might]

Luther's antipathy toward the Jews was hardly unique. Many Catholic Saints, unfortunately, were children of their time when it came to relations with the Jews.

However, it should be pointed out that historical Christian belligerence against the Jewish people was mostly based on religion and not race.

[Socrates]

[quote name='jkaands' post='1030863' date='Jul 25 2006, 09:18 PM']
It hasn't been BRED into them--they have good reason to fear. Many Protestants were burnt at the stake by Roman Catholics. "Heretics" of all kinds all over Europe: Albigensians in the south of France ("Burn them all-God will seek out His own"), over 350 Protestants burnt by Bloody Mary in England, Calvinists, Lutherans in Europe and Jews in Spain, Jews in MEXICO CITY. Jewish Spaniards, the crypto-Jews, fled Spain to Mexico ahead of the Inquisition and into New Mexico from Mexico City when the Inquisition started burning Jews there. There are descendants of those crypto-Jews in New Mexico who have re-discovered their Jewish roots and, long converted to Catholicism, have converted back to Judaism. The Hutterites vividly remember their tortures and burnings by Catholics, immortalized by engravings which I have seen--horrible--

Fear dies hard. The Inquisition and Bloody Mary are still remembered and will be for a long time. Like the Nazis and the Holocaust will be remembered for many hundreds of years.

Protestants have good reason to be afraid of anyone who will assault their freedom of religion, guaranteed under the Constitution of the United States, which was written by former English who vividly remembered the horrors of European Catholicism. I fear it too, and will fight any assault upon the Constitution.
[/quote]
If you want to talk history, Catholics should have a lot more to fear from protestants than vice-versa.

The Huttites and Albigensians were violent, fanatical cults who were a genuine threat to the peace, and whose rebellions needed to be put down to preserve order in Christendom.
Far more Catholics were killed in England under the protestant "Good Queen Bess" (under whose reign being Catholic was a capital crime) than were killed under "Bloody Mary" (whose legend was largely anti-Catholic government propaganda). Not to mention all those Catholics killed under Cromwell's bloodthirsty protestant reign of terror.
On the continent, likewise, the Calvinists waged bloody war against Catholics. They were hardly peaceful victims.
And far more were killed in the mostly protestant witch-hunts of the 17th century, than were killed by the Inquistion (which was actually far more fair and leniant than most secular courts of the time, so much so that secular convicts would pretend to be heretics in order to be tried by the inquistion instead).

I can get more on this later, but it's getting late.

[Justified Saint]

And speaking of the American colonies, the Catholic colony of Maryland was among the first to pass legislation of tolerance towards all Christians, but then the Puritans screwed that all up when they got in power.

Coming from England, the colonials experience of religious repression came from the Anglican Church which of course mainly had only a mythical understanding of Catholicism.

[desertwoman]

As a protestant, it was from reading jack chick tracks and other things from people who had an agenda against the Catholic Church.

My father has a probelm with the veneration of Mary, and I still have problems with this as well for we believe that only Jesus is to be lifted up and no one else.

[jkaands]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1031508' date='Jul 26 2006, 05:54 PM']
Why do Cathos gloss over the 'bad' Popes, Bishops, and Priests and allow them human foibles, but everything that Luther had to say is discounted?
[/quote]

Amen, Anomaly.

good show!

[jkaands]

[quote name='desertwoman' post='1031866' date='Jul 27 2006, 07:47 AM']
As a protestant, it was from reading jack chick tracks and other things from people who had an agenda against the Catholic Church.

My father has a probelm with the veneration of Mary, and I still have problems with this as well for we believe that only Jesus is to be lifted up and no one else.

re veneration of Mary: Hear, hear, desertwoman!

What are "jack chick tracks"?

True, the Anglicans persecuted. As a matter of fact, in this country, the group in power persecuted the group that wasn't, just like Europe--any everywhere else! That's why the Founding Fathers were so concerned about protecting ALL religious rights in the Constitution.
[/quote]

[LSW]

No one has ever "glossed" over the bad Popes, Priests, ect. I have, and many other Catholics on this forum, have admitted that some in the Church have committed grave sins in the past against others. In fact I stay away from using this ridiculous argument against Protestants because its counter productive and it cuts both ways. Protestants love to argue like this because they think this is a good reason not to be Catholic. Well if that's the case then I won't ever be Protestant because of all the bad stuff that some Protestants have done in the past to Catholics and others. See how dumb this is?

Futhermore, Pope john Paul II has apologized many times during his Pontificate on behalf of members of the Church that have acted less than Christian in the past against others. I'm still waiting for a Minister, Rabbi, Imam to step up to the plate and do the same.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1031508' date='Jul 26 2006, 07:54 PM']
Why do Cathos gloss over the 'bad' Popes, Bishops, and Priests and allow them human foibles, but everything that Luther had to say is discounted?
[/quote]
There have indeed been bad Popes, Bishops, and Priests. John Paul II made many apologies over acts of Christians in the past. Not [i]everything[/i] Luther had to say was incorrect. Some of his criticism of corruption resulted in Catholic reforms during the Counter-Reformation.
The problems with some Catholic clergy are behavioral. The Church's problems with Luther were doctrinal.

[quote name='jkaands' post='1031185' date='Jul 26 2006, 11:15 AM']
Protestests don't worship their founders and reformers.
[/quote]
I think you misunderstand, the Church does not worship saints.

Edited July 27, 2006 by thedude

[thessalonian]

Read books such as Foxes Book of Marytrs sometime. They liberally throw around words such as papists, popish, romanists, romish, etc. Clear prejudice.

[Era Might]

We also throw around terms like "Fundy" and "Deformation". It runs both ways.

[quote]Consequently, the commitment to ecumenism must be based upon the conversion of hearts and upon prayer, which will also lead to the necessary purification of past memories. With the grace of the Holy Spirit, the Lord's disciples, inspired by love, by the power of the truth and by a sincere desire for mutual forgiveness and reconciliation, are called to re-examine together their painful past and the hurt which that past regrettably continues to provoke even today. All together, they are invited by the ever fresh power of the Gospel to acknowledge with sincere and total objectivity the mistakes made and the contingent factors at work at the origins of their deplorable divisions. What is needed is a calm, clear-sighted and truthful vision of things, a vision enlivened by divine mercy and capable of freeing people's minds and of inspiring in everyone a renewed willingness, precisely with a view to proclaiming the Gospel to the men and women of every people and nation.

--Pope John Paul II, Encyclical Letter "Ut Unum Sint"[/quote]

[Anomaly]

[quote name='thedude' post='1032077' date='Jul 27 2006, 01:06 PM']
The problems with some Catholic clergy are behavioral. The Church's problems with Luther were doctrinal.[/quote]Not all of Luther's points were Doctrinally wrong. What about selling indulgences? What about not disciplining corrupt bishops? You admit that Luther was right in many instances and led to needed reforms. But oh so slowly.
There is no need to foster a stereotype that non-Catholics are 'RomeOPhobic' for invalid reasons.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1032184' date='Jul 27 2006, 03:34 PM']
Not all of Luther's points were Doctrinally wrong. What about selling indulgences? What about not disciplining corrupt bishops? You admit that Luther was right in many instances and led to needed reforms. But oh so slowly.
There is no need to foster a stereotype that non-Catholics are 'RomeOPhobic' for invalid reasons.
[/quote]
No one claimed [i]every[/i] point Luther made was doctrinally wrong. However, he still did teach heresy and error, as well as instigated schism in the Church.

Btw, selling indulgences is not a [i]doctrinal[/i] issue, but an issue of abuse. Luther was not excommunicated for opposing the sale of indulgences.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='son_of_angels' post='1031045' date='Jul 26 2006, 06:12 AM']
Perhaps, but Luther was also an anti-semitical, bipolar heretic who told people to "sin, and sin boldly!" Most of the other heretics from that people follow suit.

The real reformers during that period were in the Council of Trent.

As I said, Protestants DO have something to fear, and that's ok.

Perhaps, but Luther was also an anti-semitical, bipolar heretic who told people to "sin, and sin boldly!" Most of the other heretics from that period follow suit.

The real reformers during that period were in the Council of Trent.

As I said, Protestants DO have something to fear, and that's ok.
[/quote]
Socrates,
Nobody is bashing Luther? Dice it up with semantics if you will.

The topic of this thread is whether or not Protestants can have a justifiable fear of "Rome" or what Catholics think of them. Just as many Prots don't think Caths are Christian, many Caths don't thik Prots are Christian. That's the point.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1032255' date='Jul 27 2006, 05:59 PM']
Socrates,
Nobody is bashing Luther? Dice it up with semantics if you will.

The topic of this thread is whether or not Protestants can have a justifiable fear of "Rome" or what Catholics think of them. Just as many Prots don't think Caths are Christian, many Caths don't thik Prots are Christian. That's the point.
[/quote]
My point is that Luther's legitimate complaints about abuses in the Church are not the issue, and are not why he is considered heretical. Many saints complained about the same things. The fact that Luther made some legitimate points does not mean that he did not also promote heresy and schism.