RomeOPhobic

[Era Might]

Cardinal Law never molested anyone.

That sure came out of left field.

[mariahLVzJP2]

[quote name='LSW' post='1032074' date='Jul 27 2006, 01:56 PM']
No one has ever "glossed" over the bad Popes, Priests, ect. I have, and many other Catholics on this forum, have admitted that some in the Church have committed grave sins in the past against others. In fact I stay away from using this ridiculous argument against Protestants because its counter productive and it cuts both ways. Protestants love to argue like this because they think this is a good reason not to be Catholic. Well if that's the case then I won't ever be Protestant because of all the bad stuff that some Protestants have done in the past to Catholics and others. See how dumb this is?

Futhermore, Pope john Paul II has apologized many times during his Pontificate on behalf of members of the Church that have acted less than Christian in the past against others. I'm still waiting for a Minister, Rabbi, Imam to step up to the plate and do the same.
[/quote]

[pyranima]

[quote name='jkaands' post='1030863' date='Jul 25 2006, 09:18 PM']
It hasn't been BRED into them--they have good reason to fear. Many Protestants were burnt at the stake by Roman Catholics. "Heretics" of all kinds all over Europe: Albigensians in the south of France ("Burn them all-God will seek out His own"), over 350 Protestants burnt by Bloody Mary in England, Calvinists, Lutherans in Europe and Jews in Spain, Jews in MEXICO CITY. Jewish Spaniards, the crypto-Jews, fled Spain to Mexico ahead of the Inquisition and into New Mexico from Mexico City when the Inquisition started burning Jews there. There are descendants of those crypto-Jews in New Mexico who have re-discovered their Jewish roots and, long converted to Catholicism, have converted back to Judaism. The Hutterites vividly remember their tortures and burnings by Catholics, immortalized by engravings which I have seen--horrible--

Fear dies hard. The Inquisition and Bloody Mary are still remembered and will be for a long time. Like the Nazis and the Holocaust will be remembered for many hundreds of years.

Protestants have good reason to be afraid of anyone who will assault their freedom of religion, guaranteed under the Constitution of the United States, which was written by former English who vividly remembered the horrors of European Catholicism. I fear it too, and will fight any assault upon the Constitution.
[/quote]
Protestantism is a deformation of Christianity. but to counter your point Calvin and Luther were not any better, both sides have blood on their hands just look at Henery the 8th look at luther, look at Calvin or zwingly or any of the reformers they killed eachother they killed Catholics and Catholics killed them. and i cant say that i disagree with it either, think about it for a moment, these Heretics (and that word depends on which side your on im not using it exclusivly for Catholics or Protestants) are endagering souls. not just 1 or 2 but thousands and millions of souls. we are talking about peoples eternal salvation, Just as America must defend itself against terrorists, so Christianity (notice i said Christianity and not the church though they are one in the same i will leave that word open for which ever side to consider) must also protect the Faithful against Spiritual terrorists. Point at the Catholic Church and saying "See they killed X number of people" is not only ignorant of history but out right ignorance. the Church did not kill anyone Leaders of Countries saw that the fundamental prinicple of their coutries structer were under attack and they reacted. if what they did was right or wrong can be argued, however it is foolish to ignore the fact that Protestants have just as much blood on their hands. to say the Catholic Church is opposed to freedom of Religion is ignorant, in fact coersion is condemned by the Catholic Church. there are "Horrors" commited by both Catholics and Protestants to take and point out 1 bad apple and use that as the bar to which you gauge any religion is muleish. I can point out a list of bad protestants in any denomination.

Protestants Forsake Peter because of Judas, and in forsaking Peter they forsake Christ because Christ gave Authority to Peter. to argue that Peter is not the rock in Matt 16:18 is not only bad scholarship but bigotry and out right stupidity. many, and i do mean many Protestant scholars have conceded that Peter is the rock, the Greek points it out, the Aramaic points it out, even the English points it out if you look close enough (study the name Peter and look at the context of what is said). your RomeOPhobic comments are baseless, you are simply an antiCatholic, the Church wants all People to come to Christ and embrace the fullness of truth. Just as ANY Christian or for that matter anyone of any religion does or should want. if you have the Truth you should want other people to have it too, however the Church does not MAKE anyone become Catholic and to do so is agains the Catholic Faith and has ALWAY been agains the Catholic Faith. The question of the things or what individual countries did is not related to the Church, the Church did tell those countries that they have a right (which all countries do) to defend theirself and their people. Protestantism coming into a Catholic country was the equivalent of Communism coming to America, was what America did in the Red scare ethical or right? that is up for debate, that we had a right to defend ourself against an invading force is not.

[quote name='jkaands' post='1032052' date='Jul 27 2006, 12:24 PM']
Why do Cathos gloss over the 'bad' Popes, Bishops, and Priests and allow them human foibles, but everything that Luther had to say is discounted?
Amen, Anomaly.

good show!
[/quote]
and how do you know about these bad Popes? oh yes that is right because the Catholic Church rather than hiding them says "yes we had bad popes but show me where they taught error in faith or morals?" nobody glosses over them, they are there, we know they are there. we say "yes bad popes yes bad bishops, yes bad protestant pastors" but we also say that if Bad popes and Bad Bishops cannot destroy the Church or the teachings of Christ then who can?

[pyranima]

[quote name='desertwoman' post='1031866' date='Jul 27 2006, 07:47 AM']
As a protestant, it was from reading jack chick tracks and other things from people who had an agenda against the Catholic Church.

My father has a probelm with the veneration of Mary, and I still have problems with this as well for we believe that only Jesus is to be lifted up and no one else.
[/quote]going to Jack Chich on information on the Catholic Church is like going to a budhist about mormonism. i can point out errors and errors about what he says. Jesus himself lifts up the Saints in Rev. we do not lift Mary up above Jesus, but we do bless what God has Blessed (and the bible says Mary is blessed). the bible says "All generations will call me blessed" why would all generations call her blessed? isnt calling her blessed lifting her up?

We Lift Mary up TO God and say "Look how merciful you are O Great God, How Merciful you are." anyone who lifts Mary up commits an offense against the 1st commandment and they make Mary a goddess and commit idolitry, anyone who lifts Mary up TO God, is Praising and Worshiping God saying "Look at the fruit of you labor". as we Lift Christ up to the Father so we lift Mary up to Christ WITH this exception, Mary is not Divine. We lift Christ up to God as both Divine and Human, we lift Mary up to Christ as Human. we do not offer Masses up to Mary (condemned by the Church), we only offer Masses up to God the Father (first person of the Blessed Trinity), in which we are offering the Son to the Father through the Holy Spirit. The Mass is the Center of True Catholic living, its like water or air. you can be Catholic and never say a single Prayer to Mary, or any of the Saints.

[Budge]

Wasnt bred into me, I grew up literally surrounded by Catholicism, lived across the street from a Catholic church, had nuns for friends, hanging out at the convent, mothers best friend was a nun for 23 years and visited us constantly. One reason I warn about Catholicism and the false teachings of its leaders, is because there are millions of nice people being led down a false path who deserve to know the truth same as me.

The Vatican is NOT your friend. American Catholics will be suffering along with everyone else, when the American middle class is decimated, and the power of the United Nations and world government grows. Rome will even sacrifice its own people [what is happening in China right now as the Vatican makes friendly with the Commie Church] for its geo-political goals.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Budge' post='1038105' date='Aug 5 2006, 08:19 AM']
Wasnt bred into me, I grew up literally surrounded by Catholicism, lived across the street from a Catholic church, had nuns for friends, hanging out at the convent, mothers best friend was a nun for 23 years and visited us constantly. One reason I warn about Catholicism and the false teachings of its leaders, is because there are millions of nice people being led down a false path who deserve to know the truth same as me.

The Vatican is NOT your friend. American Catholics will be suffering along with everyone else, when the American middle class is decimated, and the power of the United Nations and world government grows. Rome will even sacrifice its own people [what is happening in China right now as the Vatican makes friendly with the Commie Church] for its geo-political goals.
[/quote]
Oh Budge, you know much that is hidden!

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

I will proudly admit I am a Catholic before an American. I think all Christians should be Christians before Americans.

[pyranima]

Oh yes the Vatican is buddy buddy with communists. that is why JPII brought down Communism in poland and played a large role in brining down russa. please budge

why did you leave the Catholic church?

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Actually, the dialogue between the Vatican and China has been anything but productive. China has no plans to dismantle the CPCA and Pope Pius XII's excommunication of it remains.

[Budge]

[quote]Oh yes the Vatican is buddy buddy with communists. that is why JPII brought down Communism in poland and played a large role in brining down russa. please budge
[/quote]

Try learning real history.

[img]http://www.tribuneindia.com/2005/20050403/pope/images/p23.jpg[/img]

[quote][b]More socialism means more democracy, openness and collectivism in everyday life.
Mikhail Gorbachev[/b][/quote]

[url="http://ncronline.org/NCR_Online/archives2/2006c/071406/071406h.php"]Karol Wojtyla A Communist Sympathizer?[/url]
[quote]
Actually, the dialogue between the Vatican and China has been anything but productive. China has no plans to dismantle the CPCA and Pope Pius XII's excommunication of it remains.[/quote]

Why is Rome "dialoguing" with a government that is killing thousands of Christians including thousands of Catholics?

[Socrates]

[quote name='Budge' post='1038772' date='Aug 6 2006, 05:02 PM']
Try learning real history.

[img]http://www.tribuneindia.com/2005/20050403/pope/images/p23.jpg[/img]
[url="http://ncronline.org/NCR_Online/archives2/2006c/071406/071406h.php"]Karol Wojtyla A Communist Sympathizer?[/url]
[/quote]
Try putting down the Jack Chick comic books.

Really, posting a photo of Pope John Paul II next to Mikhail Gorbachev is supposed to convince us all that the Catholic Church is Communist?
Please!
Ronald Reagan also met with Gorbachev. Does that mean Reagan was a Soviet agent? (I realize you'll probably say "yes," but this says more about your wacked-out conspiracy-theory mindset than it does about the facts of history.) Both Reagan and JPII helped bring down the Soviet Evil Empire.
Diplomacy can play a role in defeating enemies.
Pope Gregory the Great personally met with Attila the Hun, and kept him from sacking Rome.

And the notoriously liberal and heterodox NCR is not worth the paper (or the harddrive space) it is printed on. John Paul II may have been critical of materialistic forms of capitalism, but he never, ever said anything sympathetic to Soviet-style Communism, which he has strongly and repeatedly condemened. He witnessed first-hand the horrors of Communist oppression in Poland, and was one of the strongest supporters of freedom in Poland, being a friend and supporter of Lech Walesa, and his Solidarity party in Poland.
Recent findings have disclosed that the would-be assassin of JPII was hired by the Soviet Union.

Calling John Paul II a Communist is as baseless and ridiculous as calling Pope Benedict XVI a Nazi.


[quote]Why is Rome "dialoguing" with a government that is killing thousands of Christians including thousands of Catholics?[/quote]
I'm sorry, but you will not be able to find anything from any reputable source showing that the Catholic Church supports Chinese Communism or the persecution of Catholics in China.
The Church was dealing with Chinese Bishops, trying to get them to return to the Church, not supporting Communism!

I don't know why I'm even wasting time refuting this nonsense - all these silly conspiracy theories and trolling do is prove that apparently some people will not, um, budge in their asinine bigotry.

Edited August 7, 2006 by Socrates

[MissScripture]

[quote name='Budge' post='1038772' date='Aug 6 2006, 06:02 PM']
Try learning real history.
[/quote]
Why don't you?
[quote name='Budge' post='1038772' date='Aug 6 2006, 06:02 PM']

Why is Rome "dialoguing" with a government that is killing thousands of Christians including thousands of Catholics?
[/quote]
Why not? What do you want them to do? Let's think about it, is it better to sit around and do nothing or to try to talk about it and hopefully accomplish some conversion? Hmm...that's a tough one!

[Budge]

This is from a Catholic website.

[url="http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2004/oct/04100601.html"]http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2004/oct/04100601.html[/url]




[quote]Gorbachev Calls for "New World Order"

WHITE SULPHUR SPRINGS, W.Va., October 6, 2004 (LifeSiteNews.com) - [b]Mikhail Gorbachev, the former Soviet leader who has promoted one-world government under the guise of "global governance", called Tuesday for a "new world order" that will be based on strong adherence to international law.[/b]

Gorbachev, speaking to the 91st annual Insurance Leadership Forum, said the new world order he is advancing should adhere to international law, rely heavily on the United Nations and not seek to impose the views of one country or a group of countries on others. He said the new order should be more stable, more just and more humane. It will not deny the cultural and ethnic diversity in the world, and it will not ignore environmental challenges, he said.
[b]
Taking aim at the United States, the only developed nation that has refused to surrender its sovereignty to the International Criminal Court, Gorbachev said, "World order does not mean world government," nor "can you build a new world order on the basis of preemptive strikes."[/b]

Gorbachev with his influential comrade Maurice Strong co-authored the infamous "Earth Charter" which they are hoping will guide a new world order based on "planetary ethics". The Charter reads like a new age ten commandments and includes language supporting abortion.

See related LifeSiteNews.com coverage:[/quote]

[url="http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/01/01/pope.ny.ap/"]http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/01/01/pope.ny.ap/[/url]



Worl[quote]d
Pope calls for a new world order

Thursday, January 1, 2004 Posted: 1421 GMT (10:21 PM HKT)


VATICAN CITY (AP) -- Pope John Paul II rang in the New Year on Thursday with a renewed call for peace in the Middle East and Africa and [b]the creation of a new world order [/b]based on respect for the dignity of man and equality among nations.

John Paul presided over a morning Mass inside St. Peter's Basilica to mark the World Day of Peace, which the Roman Catholic Church celebrates every January 1. He appeared in good form, delivering his entire homily in a strong and clear voice despite a relatively tiring holiday schedule.

This year, John Paul directed his thoughts to continuing conflicts around the globe. [b]But he stressed that to bring about peace, there needs to be a new respect for international law and the creation of a "new international order" based on the goals of the United Nations.[/b]

He called for "an order that is able to give adequate solutions to today's problems based on the dignity of the human being, on an integral development of society, on solidarity among nations rich and poor, on the sharing of resources and the extraordinary results of scientific and technical progress."

The pope lamented continuing violence between Israel and the Palestinians, and also offered his prayers for his ambassador to Burundi, Archbishop Michael Courtney, who was gunned down by assailants this week as he returned from a funeral.

John Paul said Courtney was killed "while he carried out his mission in favor of dialogue and reconciliation" in the central African country, which has been wracked by violence for a decade.

"Let us pray for him, hoping that his example and sacrifice will bring about the fruits of peace in Burundi and the world," he said.

Earlier this month, John Paul issued a formal document marking the World Day of Peace in which he called for a reform of the United Nations and international law to deal with the evolving threat of terrorism.

He said a new respect for international law was the only way to achieve peace and guarantee against the arbitrary use of force. He did not mention the United States by name, but his message appeared aimed at the U.S. anti-terrorism campaign—and in particular at Washington's pre-emptive war in Iraq, which was launched without the specific authorization of the United Nations.

John Paul was a vocal critic of the Iraq war, dispatching envoys to Washington and Baghdad to try to prevent hostilities from breaking out and exhorting world leaders that war was not inevitable and was "always a defeat for humanity."

"Because peace is possible ... it is necessary," he said during his homily Thursday.

The New Year's Mass was the last major celebration of the Christmas season for John Paul, who is 83 and suffers from Parkinson's disease, which makes it difficult for him to speak, as well as knee and hip ailments that make it almost impossible for him to walk or stand.

He cut back some of his holiday activities and scrapped two traditional papal events—the ordination of bishops January 6 and baptisms on January 11.

But throughout the Christmas season, he has appeared far stronger than during the series of celebrations in October marking his 25th anniversary as pope. Then, he was unable to deliver many of his homilies and had to have others to read them on his behalf. [/quote]

Both obviously support [well JPII supported] having the United Nations in charge and a NWO.



[quote]
I'm sorry, but you will not be able to find anything from any reputable source showing that the Catholic Church supports Chinese Communism or the persecution of Catholics in China.[/quote]

[url="http://www.losangelesmission.com/ed/articles/2005/0512rg.htm"]http://www.losangelesmission.com/ed/articles/2005/0512rg.htm[/url]

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

In that context, "new world order" does not mean a single government, but a a set of common goals for all people to work toward.

This article is not about communism, but about the lack of religious rights in China - a problem the Holy See wishes to see corrected:
[url="http://www.losangelesmission.com/ed/articles/2005/0512rg.htm"]http://www.losangelesmission.com/ed/articles/2005/0512rg.htm[/url]

[Eutychus]

[quote] They liberally throw around words such as papists, popish, romanists, romish, etc. Clear prejudice.[/quote]

Actually VERY illustrative terminology.

Remember, you Papists find nothing wrong with Protestant....right? A derisive name given to those seeking freedom from the constraining corruptions, both theologically, and physically, of Rome.

So when someone calls YOU a Papist, that is derisive, but when YOU call a Christian a Protestant, that is just your being accurate....is that how the game goes?

[pyranima]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1039096' date='Aug 7 2006, 11:18 AM']
Actually VERY illustrative terminology.

Remember, you Papists find nothing wrong with Protestant....right? A derisive name given to those seeking freedom from the constraining corruptions, both theologically, and physically, of Rome.

So when someone calls YOU a Papist, that is derisive, but when YOU call a Christian a Protestant, that is just your being accurate....is that how the game goes?


[/quote]
WOW **Rome-O-Phobic meter reads 800**

No we call you Protestants because you are Protestants there are 4 Kinds of Christians.

Cathoilc
Reformed Catholic
Protestant
Orthodox (could be considered Protestant)

the term Protestant is given to one who Protests against a doctrine or dogma of the Catholic Faith. thus If you are not a Catholic you are actually a Protestant.

[Justified Saint]

[quote name='pyranima' post='1039329' date='Aug 7 2006, 04:43 PM']
WOW **Rome-O-Phobic meter reads 800**

No we call you Protestants because you are Protestants there are 4 Kinds of Christians.

Cathoilc
Reformed Catholic
Protestant
Orthodox (could be considered Protestant)

the term Protestant is given to one who Protests against a doctrine or dogma of the Catholic Faith. thus If you are not a Catholic you are actually a Protestant.
[/quote]

So-called "Reformed Catholics" would go under the label of Protestant; they have no ecclesiastical structure.

[pyranima]

[quote name='Justified Saint' post='1039332' date='Aug 7 2006, 05:48 PM']
So-called "Reformed Catholics" would go under the label of Protestant; they have no ecclesiastical structure.
[/quote]
While "Reformed Catholics" are not Catholic in the true sense they do often have an ecclesiastical structure, take Anglicans and Lutherans. Churches that carry a title of Reformed are often liturgical as well. while they do fall under the title of Protestant they have a more specific title. there are a few major types of Protestants with "evangelical" and "reformed" being the 2 biggest most people forget however that Luther and the other "reformers" called themselves "catholic"

[Justified Saint]

[quote name='pyranima' post='1039402' date='Aug 7 2006, 06:57 PM']
While "Reformed Catholics" are not Catholic in the true sense they do often have an ecclesiastical structure, take Anglicans and Lutherans. Churches that carry a title of Reformed are often liturgical as well. while they do fall under the title of Protestant they have a more specific title. there are a few major types of Protestants with "evangelical" and "reformed" being the 2 biggest most people forget however that Luther and the other "reformers" called themselves "catholic"
[/quote]

If you want to be more specific then you could say reformed or evangelical Protestant, that seems more accurate. "Reformed Catholic" is a rather ambiguous label (I think so at least).

[Eutychus]

[quote]No we call you Protestants because you are Protestants [b][u]there are 4 Kinds of Christians.[/u] [/b][/quote]

Now that's odd....

.... I could have SWORN we are accused of having 33,000 kinds of Christians....

Now we are down to only 4?

Sheesh, I would at LEAST expect 20 just to keep us honest....

Edited August 11, 2006 by Eutychus