Scripture To Think About...

[Budge]

Deu 4:16 [font="Arial Black"]Lest ye corrupt [yourselves], and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure[/font], the likeness of male or female,

Deu 4:17 The likeness of any beast that [is] on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air,

Deu 4:18 The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that [is] in the waters beneath the earth:

Deu 4:19 [font="Arial Black"]And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun,[/font] and the moon, and the stars, [even] all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.

[img]http://www.catholicposters.com/shop/images/products/fullimages/978.jpg[/img]

[quote]
[1] Look at the picture above one more time. Would you call that Eucharist cracker an image? Let me help you. An image is, according to Webster's,
[i]
im-age (im'ij) n. an imitation or representation of a person or thing, drawn, painted, photographed, etc.; esp., a statue; [b]a sculpted figure used as an idol.[/b][/i]

The person is Jesus, the idol is the Eucharist cracker and surrounding monstrance. "But," a Catholic would say to me, "we don't worship idols, we worship Jesus." Well, let's look at Webster's again for the definition of an idol:

[i] i-dol (i'dl) n. [b]an image of a god, used as an object or instrument of worship[/b]. [Didn't Karol say to worship the Eucharist?]; any object of ardent or excessive devotion or admiration [Didn't Karol say, "Eucharistic DEVOTION"?] [/quote][/i]

[img]http://www.whateverycatholicshouldknow.com/estore/images/GB.jpg[/img]

Edited August 5, 2006 by Budge

[Fidei Defensor]

[ReinnieR]

the Eucharist is Jesus Christ

Body and Blood Soul and Divinity

you're funny

Edited August 5, 2006 by ReinnieR

[chris]

Well, lets then use Bible verses like you did

Matthew 26

This above Chapter I will not quote because it is it too long and you should know it. The Bread and the Wine are the Body and Blood of Christ. This is stated by Christ himself. Therefore, the bread and the wine are all we physically have left of Christ, besides the church. Secoundly, There is no where in the Bible that says we cannot adore the Eucharistic Host. Is it not the Body of Christ? As Christ himself said?

When we adore the host and the host respect we arent worhiping an idol cracker. That is the most ridiculous accusation I have ever heard.

Remeber, The Bible isnt the Supreme rule for our Faith. Sola Scriptura is not taught in the Bible. If Catholics are going to mass to worhip a piece of bread (Which, the thought in and of itself is hilarious) Then protestants are just as guily (as I was at one time) of "Bible" worhip.

My point is this...We adore the Most Holy Eucharist because, it was the last thing that God physically gave to us before his death on the Cross...His own Body and Blood.

He have himself. So Re-read Matt 26 and then you tell me who is influenced by idol worhip. Because, certain protestants I know have made the Bible an idol.

Edited August 5, 2006 by Convert4888

[DAF]

Budge, the Eucharist isn't a graven image because it's not an image (read "representation,' etc. as your definitions there indicate).

Deu 4:16: We're worshiping divinity, not creation. This verse isn't relevant.
Deu 4:17: Jesus isn't an animal. Irrelevant.
Deu 4:18: Jesus neither crawls nor swims. Irrelevant.
Deu 4:19: Again, we're worshiping God in His person of Jesus Christ. This verse, like all your others, forbid worship of creation over Creator. We're doing no such thing.

It's disturbing to me how you, who hold the Bible to be the sole rule of your faith, would mutilate and abuse it in this way.

That's a wonderful picture of JP II!

Edited August 5, 2006 by DAF

[Budge]

I asked this on my board the other day:

if the Eucharist is Christ's real body and blood, why was Jesus sitting there eating "himself" supposely at the Last supper?

This proves to me it was symbolic.

The bread used even at the Last Supper represented how Jesus Christ's body would be broken at the cross. The Catholic Church does not use broken bread but little round [sun] wafares.


[quote]
you're funny
[/quote]


T
[quote]
Therefore, the bread and the wine are all we physically have left of Christ, besides the church. [/quote]

Jesus Christ is physically in heaven right now...

What about the Holy Spirit?

Youre leaving Him out of this.

[quote]ecoundly, There is no where in the Bible that says we cannot adore the Eucharistic Host.[/quote]

Where does it say in the Bible you are to adore the Eucharist Host.

I dont remember the apostles in the book of Acts getting down to kneel before a piece of bread.

I dont worship my Bibles, the pages are ripped and on one the cover is falling off and Ive scribbled phone numbers and other junk in the note pages.


[quote]Budge, the Eucharist isn't a graven image because it's not an image (read "representation,' etc. as your definitions there indicate).[/quote]

It is an image...

You are worshipping a piece of bread that you believe is Jesus Christ.

The Bible also says twice, once verse I know is in Isaiah, that God is not contained in anything made by human hands.

I fully expect when I see Jesus Christ in heaven it is going to be a LOT more important then staring at a stationary non-moving white wafer.

I remember as a child thinking "god is boring" when my parents took me to a Eucharist adoration.

It just sat there.

This is not forming a relationship with Jesus Christ. That is vibrant, that will bring you endless joy not sitting and staring at a piece of bread.

[homeschoolmom]

Does the bible mention Jesus eating at the Last Supper? He broke the bread, gave it to his disciples and said... etc.

As for Jesus being in heaven right now... True enough... but Jesus also said that he would be with us even until the end of the age.

[DAF]

Budge:

I'm glad that you understand the gravity of Christ's words about the Eucharist. It's a shame that so many Catholics don't.

[quote]if the Eucharist is Christ's real body and blood, why was Jesus sitting there eating "himself" supposely at the Last supper?[/quote]
It's a mystery. If you can explain to me how God the Father is pleased to have Jesus nailed to a cross, so pleased in fact, that Jesus' suffering would be sufficient for the sins of the world, I'll answer this question.

[quote]The bread used even at the Last Supper represented how Jesus Christ's body would be broken at the cross. The Catholic Church does not use broken bread but little round [sun] wafares[/quote]
The priest breaks the "wafer" in half during Mass.

[quote]Jesus Christ is physically in heaven right now...
What about the Holy Spirit?
Youre leaving Him out of this.[/quote]
I don't understand why you must put Christ in a box like this, as if he couldn't do it. You should also remember that Christ posesses his glorified body, as it clearly says in scripture. Perhaps he is not bound by space and time?
The Holy Spirit sanctifies the sacrifice of the Mass.

[quote]Where does it say in the Bible you are to adore the Eucharist Host[/quote]
Where does it say in the Bible that everything has to be in the Bible?

[quote]I dont remember the apostles in the book of Acts getting down to kneel before a piece of bread.[/quote]
I don't remember the Bible sayng what Peter's favorite wine was. Or how he liked his burgers, well done or rare. Believe it or not, things happened OUTSIDE of the Bible.

[quote]It is an image...
You are worshipping a piece of bread that you believe is Jesus Christ.[/quote]
Oh boy, you've got us with this one. 2,000 years of Christian history-all a lie!

[quote]The Bible also says twice, once verse I know is in Isaiah, that God is not contained in anything made by human hands.[/quote]
Christ doesn't become contained in the bread, that's protestantism. The species become Christ, they don't contain him. Your argument isn't even valid. Perhaps you should know what we believe, instead of stuffing pretend beliefs in our mouths.

[quote]I fully expect when I see Jesus Christ in heaven it is going to be a LOT more important then staring at a stationary non-moving white wafer.[/quote]
You and me both brother. Though I'd say interesting, not 'important.'

[quote]This is not forming a relationship with Jesus Christ. That is vibrant, that will bring you endless joy not sitting and staring at a piece of bread.[/quote]
How would you know, you never sat long enough to find out. People have died for that "wafer." If that's not vibrant devotion, I don't know what is.

[quote]I remember as a child thinking "god is boring" when my parents took me to a Eucharist adoration.
It just sat there.[/quote]
You sound to me like you've just had a bad experience with the Faith, and you're just a disgruntled apostate.

[ReinnieR]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1038285' date='Aug 5 2006, 04:45 PM']
Does the bible mention Jesus eating at the Last Supper? He broke the bread, gave it to his disciples and said... etc.

As for Jesus being in heaven right now... True enough... but Jesus also said that he would be with us even until the end of the age.
[/quote]
he also said that when 2 or 3 are gathered together in his name there his in the midst of them

omnipresence

[avemaria40]

Also, Jesus did say in Chapter 6 in the Gospel of John that if we did not eat His flesh and drink His blood, we have no life within us. If He was speaking symbolically, He would have said so, as the people had left Him because of it and He had explained parables to them when they did not understand. But, being God, He can be anywhere He wants to be, and He can give us His flesh and blood, while sitting in His flesh and blood.

As for the so called lack of vibrancy in Eucharistic devotion, it was because of the Eucharist that I converted to Catholicism and why I chose Catholicism over Protestantism. I had many reasons to go to the Protestant churches(they had music I enjoyed, I was pretty liberal about women's ordination at the time and I agreed with them, my best friend was a Protestant, and the pastors of the churches were nice) but I saw the power of the Eucharist in the Catholic Mass and felt the overwhelming Presence of God there, and after studying the Bible and Church teachings, I knew the Catholics were right and I became one Also, I've been to praise and prayer meetings with other Christians, at my own parish, and other places, but the vibrancy I feel after receiving Holy Communion just blows everything else out of the water. I know that I am receiving Jesus Christ and His love continues to overwhelm me. Through His grace, I have learned to love Him so much and I know I made the right decision to become Catholic thanks to His gift to us in the Eucharist

[Socrates]

The Host cannot be considered a "gaven image" by anyone's definition.
A "graven image" is a carved representation (as a statue) of something else.
What exactly is the consecrated Host a graven image of??

Here's some Scripture for you to think about:
[quote]Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say unto you: except you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.
He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.
For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed.
He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me: and I in him.[/quote] (John 6:54-57)

[quote]Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard; and who can hear it? [/quote] (John 6:61)

Budge apparently also finds this saying hard, and cannot hear it. Luckily, we Catholics take God's Word seriously, rather than watering it down to "symbol" and "metaphor."

If the consecrated Host is indeed only a piece of bread, then it would indeed be idolatry to adore it. However, we Catholics believe that it is not bread, but the Body of Christ; therefore we are not adoring bread, but are adoring Christ, to Whom belongs all honor and glory.

And Catholics only adore the Host (the Body of Christ), not the monstrance, which is merely a container for the Host.

C'mon Budge, do you actually think you're going to "convert" any Catholics on here with this Jack Chick-ish silliness?

Edited August 6, 2006 by Socrates

[jswranch]

Budge,

How many scriptures do you know that support that the consecrated bread and wine are not the body and blood of Christ?

[pyranima]

Ok lets clear up one thing. Not all of the Rites in the Catholic Church have Adoration, infact i think only 2 maybe 3 Rites acutally have Adoration. secondly your premsis that Jesus is not present in the Host.

Let us come to this agreement which i do think is a fair one. If Jesus Truly is present in the Host, then it is right fair and Honorable to preform Adoration of Jesus who is in the Host. as for the monsterance no body worships the monsterance it severs as the tabernacle.


[quote] John 6
25When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, "Rabbi, when did you get here?"

26Jesus answered, "[b]I tell you the truth[/b], you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."
[/quote] Where is this food that does not spoil? where do we find this?

[quote]
28Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"

29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."[/quote]interesting that Jesus says that they must actually DO something to have this food.
[quote]
30So they asked him, "What miraculous sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written: 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'[c]"

32Jesus said to them, "[b]I tell you the truth[/b], it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33[b]For the bread of God is HE who comes down from heaven[/b] and gives life to the world."[/quote] Whenever scripture says "i tell you the truth" or "truly truly" we should pay speciall attention to what is going on. Jesus is saying "Listen up what i am about to say is very very important". with that noted Jesus says that the bread from God is HE who COMES DOWN FROM HEAVEN. He also says the it is this bread which gives life to the world.
[quote]
34"Sir," they said, "from now on give us this bread."

35Then Jesus declared, "[b][i]I am[/i] the bread of life[/b]. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38[b]For I have come down from heaven[/b] not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." [/quote]
there are several things to nte in this passage one of which is that Jesus said before that the bread of life is HE WHO CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN and then he says "FOR I HAVE COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN" Jesus is also telling us "Have faith in what i tell you, believe that it is true, believe that what i say is the truth" we know he is saying this when he says "Believes in him shal have entenal life" he is not just talking about an act of the mind but an act of the will and body. he is saying "Believe with everything you have with every breath and fiber"
[quote]
41At this the Jews began to grumble about him because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven."[/quote] ok remember he is talking about the manna in the desert, he is saying a second time "I am the bread that came down from heaven" its a re-enforcement of what he has laready said. he is saying "that bread that came down in the desert was not the bread of life it is not the bread which is given to ALL the world.

[quote]
42They said, "Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, 'I came down from heaven'?"[/quote] just a symbol? the jews seem to be taking him literally.


[quote]
43"Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.'[/quote] Jesus is saying a few things here one is that it takes Faith to believe what he is saying, the other is that this faith Comes from the Father. without this grace (the grace of faith) which is given by the Father and accepted by the individual NO ONE can believe. The other thing to note is that Jesus is saying "God himself is teaching you"

[quote] Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. 46No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47[b]I tell you the truth[/b], he who believes has everlasting life. 48[b]I am the bread of life.[/b] 49Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50But [b]here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die[b]. 51[b]I am the living bread that came down from heaven.[/b] If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. [b]This bread is [i]MY[/i] flesh, [i]which I will give for the life of the world[/i].[/b]"[/quote] again several things to be noted here one is that Jesus is telling everyone that HE was speaking to Mosas on the mountain. but the most important thing to note is that AGAIN Jesus has said "Truly i say to you" so we know we need to listen because what he is saying is very important. He is saying those who ate the manna in the desert died, but however he turns around and says "I am the living bread" and that he "came down from heaven" remember Jesus said Truly when he is speaking here and he says "This bread is [i]MY[/i] flesh" note here that he specifically points out MY flesh this is important here, and also note he said his flesh is Bread not his words but flesh"

But here is the real doozy the one that really knocks you off your feet when you see it, its easy to pass up but when you really look at it for the first time it JUMPS out at you "which I will give for the life of the world" in full context "[b]This bread is [i]MY[/i] flesh, [i]which I will give for the life of the world[/i].[/b]" he says this bread is his flesh which he will give for the life of the world. there is no way to take this as symbolic without being a gnostic. he says his flesh which is the bread he will lay down for the life of the world. this is a foreshadowing of the crucifixion. "i will lay my life down on the cross and the flesh will die and this flesh is the BREAD of life which you must eat" there is no way NO WAY around this text

[quote]
52Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"[/quote] I think it is very clear here the Jews take Jesus as meaning a symbol. there is no way they think this is a symbol they believe every word he is saying, they believe he really wants them to eat his flesh.
[quote]
53Jesus said to them, "[b]I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.[/b][/quote] Jesus cannot be more clear he says [b]I tell you [i]THE[/i] truth[/b] then he goes on to say that unless you EAT the flesh of the Son of man (Jesus) and drink his blood, you have no life in you. there is no way to take this as symbolic, i admit at the start of this study of John 6 you could stretch it to mean Jesus is being symbolic but he is being to forceful and saying that you HE is the bread of life, and that you must eat HIS flesh and drink HIS blood too much. he is saying it over and over again. if you have ever been to school you will know when the teacher has something important to say they will repeat it over and over again.

[quote]
54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real(the greek word here is genuine or true or honest) food and my blood is real(the greek word here is genuine or true or honest) drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood [b]dwells in me, and I in him.[/b] 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, [i]so the one who feeds on me will live because of me[/i]. 58[b]This is the bread that came down from heaven[/b]. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever." [/quote]again he talks about the Manna in the desert saying again that he is talking literally. he also says For MY Flesh is REAL, not symbolic but REAL. he also again says that you MUST eat his flesh and drink his blood. but there is something else of great importance, remember in the vine and the branches he says that we need to dwell in him. he says that who eats his flesh and drinks his blood dwells in him and he in them.

[quote]
59He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
Many Disciples Desert Jesus[/quote] no other place in scripture did his deciples leave him. you must bend warp and twist your mind to think they did not take Jesus seriously.
[quote] 60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "[b]This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?[/b]"[/quote] yes that is the point that it is a hard teaching if it were easy then having Faith would be easy. but here Jesus is telling us something that is impossible to believe, and why? so that we submit ourselves to Faith. He is saying something that without God's Grace and without accepting God's Grace then we cannot believe. Protestants are always talking about how we need to have Faith, here Jesus is telling us HAVE FAITH! do you have enough Faith to believe something hard that Jesus is telling you?
[quote]
61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, [b]"Does this offend you?[b] 62[b]What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before![/b][/quote] Does this offend you? how can Jesus ask such a thing he is telling people to Eat his Flesh and Drink is Blood, of course it is offensive. but Jesus goes on to say "What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before." what does this mean? What is Jesus trying to say? he is saying that it is hard for you to accpet this it is hard for you to submit to Faith, you are rejecting what i am saying but if you see ME if you see ME THE CHRIST ascend to heaven where i was before then COULD YOU BELIVE! now if i remember correctly and someone please correct me but one thing Christians believe is that Jesus asceneded into heaven.

[quote] 63The Spirit gives life; [b]the[/b] flesh is of no avail for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[e] and they are life.[/quote]
AH HA! SEE! Jesus says it is the Spirit Gives life the flesh the flesh means nothing! HA! SYMBOL! well if you believe that you are taking what he said out of context. look again, 1 Jesus has just spent more than half a chapter talking about Flesh. 2 This is the first time in this chapter that Jesus has refered to THE flesh. 3 we also learn in another chapter that one must be born if Water AND Spirit. with a close look at this one line we come to understand a few things. 1 is that Jesus has just made a distinction between "MY flesh" and "THE flesh" he is saying MY Flesh is layed down, but he is saying YOUR FLESH or ANYOTHER FLESH THAN MINE it counts for nothing. how do we know this? These people have been giving sacrafices and sacrafices, yet they do not attone, they are imperfect sacrafices. but there is ONE perfect sacrafice and it is not of THE flesh but of HIS flesh. and because in all the other passages Jesus has said MY as in MINE as in ME but in this one Jesus is saying THE as in general as in all other flesh. here Jesus is talking about faith, he is saying that you must submit to faith and have trust in God. he is saying that in order to believe what i am telling you, you must not look to THE flesh. If what Jesus is saying is only a symbol he just wasted a whole chapter talking about the importance of eating his flesh and drinking his blood, and he lost alot of followers for a rather dumb mistake and not correcting what they thought.

[quote]
64"Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, "[b]This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him[/b]."[/quote] Yet there are some who do not believe? Jesus is saying there are those among you who don't have faith. and he goes on to say that this is why he said unless the Father enables no one can come to Jesus. Jesus does not correct himself instead he says that you must eat his flesh and drink his blood and if the father does not enable you to believe then it is not possible to go to Jesus. FAITH!!!

[quote] 66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.[/quote] Does anyone else find it creepy that This is what John 6:66 says? that John 666 is talking about disciples turning their back on Chirst is rather scary.


[quote] 67"You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve.[/quote] notice Jesus furthers what he says by asking if the 12 will leave him also. he is not saying "look guys this is what i mean" what he is saying is "will you have FAITH that you must eat my flesh and drink my blood"

[quote] 68Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God."[/quote] Jesus has the words of eternal life? he just was talking about whoever eats his flesh and drinks his blood will have eternal life, so what is so important about words? if you notice the theme of "Word" and "Words" shows up alot in John, in John 1 we see "the Word was with God" and alot about the Word, and here we see John talking about the words of enteral life coming from THE WORD. what are those words? This IS my body, This IS my blood"
[quote]
70Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!" 71(He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)[/quote] it is here that Judas lost Faith, it was here that Judas stopped believing. Jesus praises "I love you, did I myself not choose you? did i not choose you because you would have Faith" why Jesus chose Judas knowing he would betray him we may never know, but Jesus is clearly praising those who believe him and accusing the one who does not.

there is just NO WAY to say its a symbol. we can also note that there is not passover lamb at the passover. Ask and Orthodox Jew what it would mean to have no lamb at passover.

Edited August 6, 2006 by pyranima

[pyranima]

[url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1996/9604fea1.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1996/9604fea1.asp[/url]

[Budge]

[quote]
If the consecrated Host is indeed only a piece of bread, then it would indeed be idolatry to adore it. However, we Catholics believe that it is not bread, but the Body of Christ; therefore we are not adoring bread, but are adoring Christ, to Whom belongs all honor and glory.[/quote]

[size=4]Isa 2:8 Their land also is full of idols; [b]they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made:[/b][/size]

[img]http://www.margaret-marks.com/Transblawg/archives/IMG_0028.jpg[/img]

Ac 17:24
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, [b]dwelleth not in temples made with hands;[/b]