Scripture To Think About...

[chris]

You know dude you are seriously overjudgmental...And really not thinking pulling all this junk out here when you know that its not gonna get you anywhere...

Personally, Posting a picture up of a nun sliding host across a counting plate and then putting a lousy pre picked Bible verse infront of it suddenly, makes the entire Catholic Church guily of bread worship for 1500 years before your sect of Christianity ever came into existence?

[quote]Ac 17:24
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands.[/quote]

So, does this mean you worship outside? Read the whole verse dont twist stuff around. It makes you look seriously inept.

[DAF]

[quote]Ac 17:24
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;[/quote]

Budge, we're not Protestants! We don't believe in consubstantiation! Gah! If you're going to throw scripture at us, at least be couteous and stop taking it so radically out of context. Jeeze.

[quote]Isa 2:8 Their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made:[/quote]

Budge, stop it. This is getting seriously ridiculous. I don't understand how you are not able to differentiate between worshiping IDOLS, which is what that passage is talking about; worshiping things in place of the true God, and worshiping the True God. Even if you don't believe we're worshiping the true God, we do, we're not worshiping something beside him, we believe we're worshiping HIM. It's not an idol. You're sick.

Edited August 7, 2006 by DAF

[chris]

[quote]Budge, we're not Protestants! We don't believe in consubstantiation! Gah! If you're going to throw scripture at us, at least be couteous and stop taking it so radically out of context. Jeeze.[/quote]

Now, theres a man who thinks like me...

I think this is all just funny cause I was once at his point useing the same thing against people and a religion I knew nothing about.

That could possibly be the problems...Dont knock it till you have tried it.

[jswranch]

Budge,
I am still waiting for you to list the scriptures that deny Transubstantiation:


Verses in favor: ~16

Verses oppoed: 0

[GodChild]

1 Conrinthians Ch: 11 verses 23-30

[b] "that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which he was betrayed took bread. And when He had given thanks, He broke it and said "take, eat this IS my body, which is broken for you, do this in remembrance of Me", in the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying "this cup IS the new covenant in my Blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me". For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lords death till He comes. Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be [u]guilty of the body and blood of the Lord [/u] . But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgement to himself, [u]not discerning the Lord's body [/u] "

nuff said

[Budge]

[quote]Even if you don't believe we're worshiping the true God, we do, we're not worshiping something beside him, we believe we're worshiping HIM. [/quote]

Really?[size=4][b]
A pretty maid, a Protestant, was to a Catholic wed

To love all Bible truths and tales, quite early she’s been bred.
It sorely grieved her husband’s heart that she would not comply,
And join the Mother Church of Rome and heretics deny.
So day by day he flattered her, but still she saw no good
Would ever come from bowing down to idols made of wood.
The Mass, the host, the miracles, were made but to deceive;
And transubstantiation, too, she’d never dare believe.
He went to see his clergyman and told him his sad tale.
“My wife is an unbeliever, sir; you can perhaps prevail;
For all your Romish miracles my wife has strong aversion,
To really work a miracle may lead to her conversion.”
The priest went with the gentleman--he thought to gain a prize.
He said, “I will convert her, sir, and open both her eyes.”
So when they came into the house, the husband loudly cried,
“The priest has come to dine with us!” “He’s welcome,” she replied.
And when, at last, the meal was o’er, the priest at once began,
To teach his hostess all about the sinful state of man;
The greatness of our Savior’s love, which Christians can’t deny.
To give Himself a sacrifice and for our sins to die.
“I will return tomorrow, lass, prepare some bread and wine;
The sacramental miracle will stop your soul’s decline.”
“I’ll bake the bread,” the lady said. “You may,” he did reply,
“And when you’ve seen this miracle, convinced you’ll be, say I.”
The priest did come accordingly, the bread and wine did bless.
The lady asked, “Sir, is it changed?” The priest answered, “Yes.
It’s changed from common bread and wine to truly flesh and blood;
Begorra, lass, this power of mine has changed it into God!”
So having blessed the bread and wine, to eat they did prepare.
The lady said unto the priest, “I warn you to take care,
For half an ounce of arsenic was mixed right in the batter,
But since you have its nature changed, it cannot really matter.”
The priest was struck real dumb--he looked as pale as death.
The bread and wine fell from his hands and he did gasp for breath.
“Bring me my horse!” the priest cried, “This is a cursed home!”
The lady replied, “Begone; tis you who shares the curse of Rome”
The husband, too, he sat surprised, and not a word did say.
At length he spoke, “My dear,” said he, “the priest has run away;
To gulp such mummery and tripe, I’m not for sure, quite able;
I’ll go with you and we’ll renounce this Roman Catholic fable.”
(Irish Poem; Author Unknown)[/b][/size]

[thessalonian]

Well budge how is the Lord's Supper any less of a graven image in Protestant Churches? The bread and wine that they use is "graven" by man. It is supposed to symbolize Christ is it not. Even from a symboic view I think you have the problem your are trying to attack.

Isn't that a sweet little story budge. So that is how Protestants think Catholics should be tricked. Would you put arsenic in bread? Isn't that murder Bubge. Such a Christ loving, bible believing protestant she was. Somehow I doudt the truth of the story (i.e. it's a lie fabricated by anti-catholics like you) but it makes me laugh that you cannot see that it points a finger right back at you. Actually that's sad.

[Budge]

You are missing the point. I thought the lady was terrible to put arsenic in the bread too...

but the fact is the BREAD is the SAME, it did not change into the Body and Blood of Christ.

Even the girl with Gluten allergies cant eat it after its been transubstaniated

The fact is the bread is the SAME.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Budge' post='1039031' date='Aug 7 2006, 10:29 AM']
You are missing the point. I thought the lady was terrible to put arsenic in the bread too...

but the fact is the BREAD is the SAME, it did not change into the Body and Blood of Christ.

Even the girl with Gluten allergies cant eat it after its been transubstaniated

The fact is the bread is the SAME.
[/quote]
You still misunderstand.

All the accidents of the bread remain the same. It retains it's taste, texture.. everything that physical senses can understand remain the same. But the SUBSTANCE, what it is, is no longer bread. It becomes the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ.

[Aloysius]

you sound like quite a materialist; very unbecoming of a Christian.

everything our senses detect is accidental to the nature of the thing. it clues us into the substance, but the substance of everything cannot be known fully except by God.

It's all in Aristotle... nay I even say with Professor Digory Kirke that it's all in Plato... what in God's name do they teach in schools nowadays?

the accidents of bread and wine remain. and the substance of arsenic will not even necessarily change, just the substance of bread (but even if the substance of arsenic were changed its accidents, i.e. how it related to human senses, would not be).

no one who believed that the accidents of a thing could be equated to its substance could every believe that Jesus Christ was true man while at the same time having the complete substance of the Divinity: his humanity was like ours in all things but sin: there was no accidental indication of His divinity in His body.

if you deny Christ's Eucharist on this grounds, I call on you to deny the Incarnation on the same grounds. Inject arsenic into the womb of the Virgin Mary and see if God is pleased.

Just as everything about Christ's body and how it interacted with human senses indicated solely His humanity, everything about the Eucharist and how it interacts with human senses indicates bread. The structure of the molecules and atoms and subatomic particals and quarks remains intact: the mysterious thing that is their very substance changes.

[DAF]

Budge, are you sensing a pattern here? I mean, it looks to me like you're just throwing everything at us that you can think of, and are hoping that something will stick; something will make us blush because we don't have an answer.

Well the truth is that we do have an answer, for everything. The Church has been at it for 2,000 years, how long has the "Open Arms Fuzzy Feel Good Bible Church of the What's Happenin' Now" been answering these questions? The denominations with the most credability would be the Lutherans and the Anglicans, and we all see where those churches are going.

But, if you insist on these silly antics, at least understand what we believe and attack the substance. Stop attaking what you think is our belief, because about everything that you've said here is not.

[Budge]

[quote]Well the truth is that we do have an answer, for everything.[/quote]

wow talk about PRIDE...

the concept of ACCIDENTS was disproven centuries ago.

Every miracle in the Bible showed something happening. Same for Jesus, it was obvious and knowable that He was not like other men and divine...[miracles and more]

Human beings also have souls. They arent inanimate objects like bread.

Bread has no "inner reality" [substance] to be changed.

It is cooked dough.

[img]http://www.pizzatherapy.com/dough.jpg[/img]

[Aloysius]

You sound like a materialist. Again, very unbecoming of a Christian.

as a matter of fact, modern physics has re-affirmed our faith that we do not know the substance of any object: just it's structure and how it relates to our senses. what it is and why it is are questions for philosophy and theology; substance is beyond the scope of human senses and must be sought through human logic.

there is a true substance for everything. you're being far too dualistic; a substance is not the same thing as a soul.

tell me, what is a quark made out of? and if what that quark was made out of was changed into something divine, would we be able to tell by our senses if all the quarks remained in the same locations in space-time?

Christ's miracles were extra-ordinary events in His life. throughout the life of the Eucharist, there have been many extra-ordinary events. God does not perform verifiable miracles on a regular basis becuase He delights in our faith; He performs verifiable miracles on an extra-ordinary basis. there are many spotted dots through history, the eucharist changing into heart tissue flesh in lanciano, it turning away invaders to monasteries/convents, being administered by angels, floating, glowing, bleeding. all these spotted miracles through history are just like the spotted miracles throughout the life of Christ; but in Christ's day to day life you could recognize nothing but a man.

You sound like a materialist. Again, very unbecoming of a Christian.

as a matter of fact, modern physics has re-affirmed our faith that we do not know the substance of any object: just it's structure and how it relates to our senses. what it is and why it is are questions for philosophy and theology; substance is beyond the scope of human senses and must be sought through human logic.

there is a true substance for everything. you're being far too dualistic; a substance is not the same thing as a soul.

tell me, what is a quark made out of? and if what that quark was made out of was changed into something divine, would we be able to tell by our senses?

Christ's miracles were extra-ordinary events in His life. throughout the life of the Eucharist, there have been many extra-ordinary events. God does not perform verifiable miracles on a regular basis becuase He delights in our faith; He performs verifiable miracles on an extra-ordinary basis. there are many spotted dots through history, the eucharist changing into heart tissue flesh in lanciano, it turning away invaders to monasteries/convents, being administered by angels, floating, glowing, bleeding. all these spotted miracles through history are just like the spotted miracles throughout the life of Christ; but in Christ's day to day life you could recognize nothing but a man.

[avemaria40]

[quote name='Budge' post='1039031' date='Aug 7 2006, 11:29 AM']
You are missing the point. I thought the lady was terrible to put arsenic in the bread too...

but the fact is the BREAD is the SAME, it did not change into the Body and Blood of Christ.

Even the girl with Gluten allergies cant eat it after its been transubstaniated

The fact is the bread is the SAME.
[/quote]
To the SENSES it is the same. It is the Body and Blood of Christ but the body still registers it as bread and wine. That doesn't mean that Jesus can change it to His Body and Blood while still having it APPEAR as the original substance.

[DAF]

[quote]wow talk about PRIDE[/quote]
Care to prove me wrong? It's not pride it's the truth. I still remain to be impressed by your wit and knowledge; by your lacking ability to punch holes in Catholic theology.

Edited August 7, 2006 by DAF