Purgatory

[uruviel]

Well, to put it simply I've heard many people say there is no suffering in purgatory. Where as there may be no way for the faithful on earth to know, I don't think that means we can't speculate. I believe that there is suffering in purgatory. I believe it is a place of justice, a place to make reparation for the sins commited on earth, if we didn't suffer it on earth we have to suffer it in purgatory before entering the Kingdom of God. It is punishment, it is only just. And God is all just. We can't commit sin, and then go to confession, die and go straight to Heaven. Unless you recieved a plenary indulgence or never sinned. And when you do have to go to purgatory, I don't understand what the point of Purgatory is if not to suffer. To pray? We can't pray for our own souls, that would mean we would be praying for those on earth. Thus making the point of purgatory to save souls on earth. Which I don't think it says in the bible that purgatory is a place for other souls to save other souls. So, I have concluded that purgatory is a place of suffering. I would imagine the torments of purgatory are only easier to bare than hell because of the light from Heaven and the hope that we know we're going to heaven one day.

If anyone believes other wise or has any more idea's, they would be appreciated. Thank you and God Bless!
In Christ,
uruviel

[Lahecil]

I know I'm not Catholic and don't believe in Purgatory, so feel free to disregard my opinion, I just wanted to throw this out there.

I think that the idea of Purgatory is the idea of karma-not-on-earth. Everything you do comes right back at you. It's not good or bad, it's just what you do. If you were to do a bad thing, then a bad thing would happen to you at some point, in this life or another. It can't really be pegged as suffering, since you did it to yourself, and it's only fair. Justice, like you said. Same goes for positive deeds.

[IcePrincessKRS]

Justice, yes. But sometimes the thing that is just is also painful. I believe that Purgatory is a place of suffering, not as bad as Hellfire, but I doubt that you just get to sit around and twiddle your thumbs waiting.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Lahecil' post='1039608' date='Aug 8 2006, 07:41 AM']
I know I'm not Catholic and don't believe in Purgatory, so feel free to disregard my opinion, I just wanted to throw this out there.

I think that the idea of Purgatory is the idea of karma-not-on-earth. Everything you do comes right back at you. It's not good or bad, it's just what you do. If you were to do a bad thing, then a bad thing would happen to you at some point, in this life or another. It can't really be pegged as suffering, since you did it to yourself, and it's only fair. Justice, like you said. Same goes for positive deeds.
[/quote]


Protestants believe in imputed righteousness (Jesus righteousness imputed to us who do not become truly righteous) and then sanctification kicks in and in a lifetime we do become more rightous but it is not guaranteed to happen before death. Now sanctification is at least in part about removing tendancies toward sin, i.e. an alcoholic has to loose his hankering to get drunk. It's not just about justice, it's about the effects of sin which must be countered in this life or somewhere, somehow because in heaven there will not be the slightest tendancy toward sin. The slightest desire to get drunk or to murder or lie or cheat. "Nothing unclean shall enter". Absolutely no sin or tendancy toward sin. A man's thoughts will be so incredibly pure that we cannto fathom it. Now how does this happen between death and eterinity for the one in who sanctification, a process by both your an my definition, take place. Why does God sanctify through suffering in this life yet there will be no suffering about it in the transition between earth and heaven? Now it may be instantaneous but certainly 1 Cor 3:15 tells us there is an intensity about it. "If any man's work is burned up he will be saved, BUT AS IF THROUGH FIRE".

Blessings

[veni]

[font="Georgia"]In regards to Purgatory, I more believe that its more the experience than the place that matters. We all know that when we suffer in any way, we are so intimately connected with Christ because of the sufferings he endured. To suffer truly is uniting oneself to Christ. So at the end of our lives, when many suffer mental and physical ailments, when we are trapped with our memories of regrets and heart-aches, and the mental anguish of knowing soon you will enter God's presence- it forces (in a way, cause all you can do is pray) people have that conversion experience we spend our whole lives searching for. That is Purgatory. And to offer prayers for those in Purgatory, our Trinitarian God, working outside the measures of time, can apply those prayers to ease the suffering of those before they passed (like perphaps giving them just that one second's rest before they passed) or apply them to those going through that conversion of soul now. I don't know. But I'm certain God uses our prayers for a myriad of purposes. And all that about plenary indulgences and this and that, do you honestly think Christ, [b]CHRIST[/b]!, is like some guy with a clipboard checking indulgences? Put on the mind of Christ. [u][b][i]LOVE. UNCONDITIONALLY[/b]!!![/i][/u][/font][size=1]

[thessalonian]

[quote]In regards to Purgatory, I more believe that its more the experience than the place that matters. [/quote]

Your in good company:

JP II explains purgatory:

[url="http://www.solt3.org/purgatory2.htm"]http://www.solt3.org/purgatory2.htm[/url]

[Lahecil]

[quote]Protestants believe in imputed righteousness (Jesus righteousness imputed to us who do not become truly righteous) and then sanctification kicks in and in a lifetime we do become more rightous but it is not guaranteed to happen before death. Now sanctification is at least in part about removing tendancies toward sin, i.e. an alcoholic has to loose his hankering to get drunk. It's not just about justice, it's about the effects of sin which must be countered in this life or somewhere, somehow because in heaven there will not be the slightest tendancy toward sin. The slightest desire to get drunk or to murder or lie or cheat. "Nothing unclean shall enter". Absolutely no sin or tendancy toward sin. A man's thoughts will be so incredibly pure that we cannto fathom it. Now how does this happen between death and eterinity for the one in who sanctification, a process by both your an my definition, take place. Why does God sanctify through suffering in this life yet there will be no suffering about it in the transition between earth and heaven? Now it may be instantaneous but certainly 1 Cor 3:15 tells us there is an intensity about it. "If any man's work is burned up he will be saved, BUT AS IF THROUGH FIRE".[/quote]

So it is a way to cleanse a human of all sins in this case. It's very similar to karma cleansing karmic debt. That's just the conclusion I'm drawing, please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Lahecil' post='1039649' date='Aug 8 2006, 07:57 AM']
So it is a way to cleanse a human of all sins in this case. It's very similar to karma cleansing karmic debt. That's just the conclusion I'm drawing, please correct me if I'm wrong. [/quote]More like karmic healing AFTER karmic debt is paid. Christians would say Christ pays the karmic debt, but though cleansed, karma is not made perfect yet.

[thessalonian]

[quote]So it is a way to cleanse a human of all sins in this case. It's very similar to karma cleansing karmic debt. That's just the conclusion I'm drawing, please correct me if I'm wrong. [/quote]

Is your point that the roots of it are pagan or hindu as many protestants like to claim? Tell me, did the story of Noah come first or the story of Gilgamesh? Did the creation story or the stories that are similar to it in paganism come first? These pagan stories preceed Noah and the creation story in the date of their writing but if we remember that the first five books of scripture were carried among the Jews till the time of Moses, orally, then we can understand that these stories may well have spread to the rest of the world but been corrupted and changed over time. They may also have seen evidence of these things in nature themselves. The same is true of purgatory. It is not an illogical view at all and there is evidence of it in Judaism before Christ. Perhaps you have heard of the Kaddish and how the Jews prayed for people for one year after they died. So evidence among hindu's or whoever of some form of purgatory, albeit a corrupt view is no evidence of the non-existence of purgatory, quite the contrary in my view.

[Budge]

As Ive stated for a long time, I believe Purgatory equals Hell and is one of Satans most diabololical inventions. Think the Devil is going to tell you the truth about how long youll be there? Make the torture that much greater thinking you will get out one day. This Catholic art work says it all, look at the poor people burning in the fire, screaming to "Mary" for help.


[img]http://www.marys-touch.com/truth/purgatory.JPG[/img]


Catholic priest wrote this:
[quote]
And this is why the doctrine of Purgatory, far from being frightening, is a beautiful re-affirmation of our human solidarity and of our fraternity in Christ. This is one of Christianity's loveliest beliefs, and today is one of my favorite days on the calendar. It's a mark of wonderful mercy that Christ does not reject the imperfect soul, but rather calls her to Himself, allowing the fires of His Sacred Heart to purge away her sins and human selfishness, purifying the departed soul by the outpouring of His love. That, in a nutshell, is what Purgatory is: the process of allowing Love to purge away imperfection.[/quote]



Im going with this...
[size=5]
Hbr 1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, [u]when he had by himself purged our sins,[/u] sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;[/size]

Im glad I have a loving Father who when I die will welcome me into heaven, not send me to this place of suffering beyond that of earth, where I will be in fire and seperated from Him [which is impossible given Hebrews 13:5]

Edited August 8, 2006 by Budge

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Lahecil' post='1039649' date='Aug 8 2006, 10:57 AM']
So it is a way to cleanse a human of all sins in this case. It's very similar to karma cleansing karmic debt. That's just the conclusion I'm drawing, please correct me if I'm wrong.
[/quote]
Well, you are wrong because you said it's neither intrinsically good nor bad. We don't understand purgatory to be punishment in the sense of the word we usually use. It's more like this: you must be completely pure before you can enter heaven. Sin causes a certain attachment to sin which means that you are not completely attached to God. Purgatory's purpose is to rip away those attachments. In that way, it is painful, because your impure desires, lusts, greeds, etc., are being removed from you. These are things that, while not part of you, have been attached to you for a long time. However, it isn't bad...it is always good. These things are happening so that you may be purified to enter into a greater glory than you have ever known, and the souls in purgatory know it. Therefore, they have a great deal of hope...the kind of hope we can't even imagine. It's not bad...they are all rejoicing to be suffering over this pain. Further, it's not really payback, like kharma has it. It is true in the Christian life that what goes around comes around, but after death, only God can deal with us, and God isn't cruel like that. However, God will allow us to have what we have chosen...those who have chosen to reject Him, who would not be able to bear the fire of His love because by their own will they are not strong enough for it, will be cast far away where they will not be completely consumed by the flames. Those who have chosen God completely and are already purified (this is rare) will go straight to heaven to be with Him. Those who have chosen God, but remain attached to their sins, suffer the hopeful pains of purgatory not as a punishment for their sins, but as a medicine to heal them (the cancer must be removed). It is really only a punishment in as much as it is a natural consequence lifted up by supernatural mercy.

[Budge]

[quote]Purgatory's purpose is to rip away those attachments. In that way, it is painful, because your impure desires, lusts, greeds, etc., are being removed from you. These are things that, while not part of you, have been attached to you for a long time. However, it isn't bad...it is always good.[/quote]

This is supposed to happen while youre alive with the Holy Spirit indwelling as a born again Christian.

[size=5]1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.[/size]

Are you under the blood of Christ?

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='Budge' post='1039658' date='Aug 8 2006, 10:33 AM']
This is supposed to happen while youre alive with the Holy Spirit indwelling as a born again Christian.

[size=5]1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.[/size]

Are you under the blood of Christ?
[/quote]
The sins of those in Purgatory have been forgiven. It is their temporal punishment for forgiven sins that is being paid.

[uruviel]

[quote name='veni creator spiritus' post='1039635' date='Aug 8 2006, 08:32 AM']
[font="Georgia"] And all that about plenary indulgences and this and that, do you honestly think Christ, [b]CHRIST[/b]!, is like some guy with a clipboard checking indulgences? Put on the mind of Christ. [u][b][i]LOVE. UNCONDITIONALLY[/b]!!![/i][/u][/font][size=1]
[/quote]


Yes. I believe He's the guy with the clipboard checking off our plenary indulgences. A plenary indulgence takes away all time we have to suffer in purgatory from our sins. And he's not just gonna say what the heck come on into heaven without being purified. He's JUST.

Look at it this way. Our soul is like a board. Every sin we commit is a nail, being hammered into the board. With confession and repentance on earth, it removes the nails. Yet, the holes, the results from the nails are still imprinted on our souls. Only purgatory can perfect the board, our soul, and bring us to purification.

Or look at purgatory this way.

As we pass through the wall of fire, "purgatory" we will only get burned if we have dirt on our souls. The fire burns away the dirt slowly, but eventually, through the pain of the fire, the dirt (sin) is cleared from our souls are we are clean to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

As to if there is TIME in purgatory, I believe there is. There is a 'sentance' to souls in purgatory. Unless someone on earth does the suffering and offers it to our Lord for the souls in purgatory. But, when our blessed Lady gave us the first five Saturdays of the month, one of her promises was that on the first Saturday of our being in purgatory she would come from Heaven and take that soul out from purgatory. Now is that literal? I don't know, but she reffered to it as time. Another time our blessed Lady reffered to purgatory having TIME was when she was speaking to Sister Lucia, she told Sister Lucia that a girl Lucia knew was in purgatory, and will be until the end of time. Unless someone suffers to bring her out. Until the end of time refers to TIME obviously, not to mention, there is a time when you are NOT in purgatory and there is a time when you ARE in purgatory, so there must be time in it, since purgatory is temporary, temporary is a definition of time. Temporary has a time frame. I believe there is time in Purgatory.

[Budge]

[quote]
The sins of those in Purgatory have been forgiven. It is their temporal punishment for forgiven sins that is being paid.[/quote]

When you forgive a friend of a wrongdoing, do you demand a temporal payment?

If humans can even have that much forgiveness and mercy...God definitely has MUCH MUCH MORE.

You offend the grace of God when you speak of "temporal" punishment.

Edited August 8, 2006 by Budge