Purgatory

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Budge' post='1039749' date='Aug 8 2006, 12:03 PM']
When you forgive a friend of a wrongdoing, do you demand a temporal payment?

If humans can even have that much forgiveness and mercy...God definitely has MUCH MUCH MORE.

You offend the grace of God when you speak of "temporal" punishment.
[/quote]

Well now let's see, if my kid breaks a neighbors window, does he need to pay for it or just tell the neighbor he is sorry? Reparation and the desire to make it is a sign of the depth of the sorrow for sin. The truth of the repentence. Does the suffereing go away for our sins when we repent before God. Will the judge say to the murderer who has sincerely repented before God, no, you don't have to go to jail. Governments have been set up by God to enforce laws. God allows the suffering due to the sin here on earth precisely because of the chastisement spoken in Heb 12 quoted above. There is forgiveness yes. But that forgiveness does not rule out any sort of suffering from our sins. This is as designed by God as well. The child does not immediately appear before a woman who has had an abortion. She still suffers from the lack of blessing of the child, though she has repented of the deed.

Blessings

Edited August 8, 2006 by thessalonian

[uruviel]

[quote]You offend the grace of God when you speak of "temporal" punishment.[/quote]

you believe something different than we do. I can't make you understand our reasoning.

but I can tell you what we believe.

The Catholic church teaches temporal punishment takes place after death. Because Jesus does. It is only Just for us to be purified before entering the kindgom of Heaven. We're not even worthy to spend eternity with Him, yet in His mercy and love for us He desires it, so do you really think we are going to enter His kingdom without being purified?

[Lahecil]

[quote]Is your point that the roots of it are pagan or hindu as many protestants like to claim? Tell me, did the story of Noah come first or the story of Gilgamesh? Did the creation story or the stories that are similar to it in paganism come first? These pagan stories preceed Noah and the creation story in the date of their writing but if we remember that the first five books of scripture were carried among the Jews till the time of Moses, orally, then we can understand that these stories may well have spread to the rest of the world but been corrupted and changed over time. They may also have seen evidence of these things in nature themselves. The same is true of purgatory. It is not an illogical view at all and there is evidence of it in Judaism before Christ. Perhaps you have heard of the Kaddish and how the Jews prayed for people for one year after they died. So evidence among hindu's or whoever of some form of purgatory, albeit a corrupt view is no evidence of the non-existence of purgatory, quite the contrary in my view.[/quote]

Thessalonian, I wasn't saying that things in Christianity came before in paganism, I was explaining how I connected MY beliefs to YOUR's. While Christianity does borrow a lot from paganism, other religions do the same. If reading about ceremonial magick with very Christian influences has taught me anything, it's that.

Raphael, thank you as always for explaining things to me.

[thessalonian]

The suffering in purgatory may well be that of the soul that has seen Christ in all his radiance and glory and knows that he has not attained the holiness required to be in his full prescence in heaven yet. He knows that grace needs to work out his final sanctification before entry in to heaven.

[Budge]

[quote]
Well now let's see, if my kid breaks a neighbors window, does he need to pay for it or just tell the neighbor he is sorry? Reparation and the desire to make it is a sign of the depth of the sorrow for sin. The truth of the repentence. Does the suffereing go away for our sins when we repent before God. Will the judge say to the murderer who has sincerely repented before God, no, you don't have to go to jail. Governments have been set up by God to enforce laws. God allows the suffering due to the sin here on earth precisely because of the chastisement spoken in Heb 12 quoted above. There is forgiveness yes. But that forgiveness does not rule out any sort of suffering from our sins. This is as designed by God as well. The child does not immediately appear before a woman who has had an abortion. She still suffers from the lack of blessing of the child, though she has repented of the deed.

Blessings[/quote]

Do we go demand"temporal" consequences for every wrong someone has done? When your kid is 18 do you present a bill for the things he broke when he was 3 years old? Have you demanded PAYBACK for every sin or wrongdoing someone had done against you?
In many cases it is impossible.

There is consequence of sin that happens, but the idea of the forgiver demanding payment for everything and applying this concept to God is horrendous. This denies God's eternal grace. Hate to tell you but humans are so imperfect compared to the perfection and glory of God, paying back for their sins is impossible. This is why Jesus went to the cross to save us.

[Justified Saint]

[quote name='Budge' post='1039956' date='Aug 8 2006, 06:15 PM']

In many cases it is impossible.

[/quote]

You'd be surprised what God can pull off.

People also say its pretty ridiculous to pray (how does God keep track of all them prayers, and doesn't he know everyone's mind anyway -- how does he do that?)

[Budge]

Do you really see God, as holding a ledger of every sin youve ever committed and then making you PAYBACK for every sin?

If even our earthly best friend, doesnt hand us a bill or demand payback everytime we transgress against them, why would you expect so little of God?


I feel sad for those who believe this.

[thessalonian]

No budge that's not it. God wants to heal the wound created by the sin. The addictions and broken relationships. Do these go away after the sin is forgiven by God? They must be gone in heaven.

Edited August 9, 2006 by thessalonian

[uruviel]

exactly. By His mercy and love for us He heals the results of sin by suffering. It is MOST perfectly just, I believe it so pity me but by comparing what humans do to what God does is not right. Saying your friend wouldn't do it why would God doesn't mean anything, God isn't just a human friend.

[pyranima]

If you think about it, it makes sense that purgatory is painful. purgatory is a place of purification, on earth we are purified and think about it... its painful. why would it stop being painful just because our bodies die? Purgatory is not a matter of Karma, its a matter of cleansing.

PURGATORY

Lk 12:58-59; 1 Cor 3:15; Mt 5:25-26 ... temporary agony.
Heb 12:6-11 ... God’s painful discipline.
Mt 12:32 ... no forgiveness ... nor in the age to come.
1 Pet 3:18-20 ... might be purgatory (limbo?).
1 Pet 4:6 ... preached to the dead.
Rev 21:27 ... nothing unclean shall enter heaven.
Heb 12:23 ... souls in heaven are perfect.
Col 1:24; 2 Sam 12:13-14 ... “extra” suffering.
2 Mac 12:43-46 ... sacrifice for the dead.
2 Tim 1:15-18 ... prayer for Onesiphorus for “that Day.”
1 Jn 5:14-17 ... mortal/venial sins

[Tarcisius]

The suffering in purgatory will be worse than 10 times the worst pain that could be felt on earth. Every unperfected soul must suffer to make it ready for the kingdom of God.

[Budge]

[quote]The suffering in purgatory will be worse than 10 times the worst pain that could be felt on earth[/quote]

It sure will, why?

Because Purgatory is really another name for hell.

Satan has in his grasp all the poor Catholics who think one day they will get out.

What brings me so much sorrow, is that all of you know so little of the love of God, that you believe even after you have suffered on your deathbed, and MOST people suffer immensely as they die even if its years in a nursing home or the pain of a sudden death, that instead of God the loving Father welcoming you home in His arms, he sends you off to some horrible place of 10 times the pain of earth. I wouldnt even send my dog or my worse human enemy to that place but somehow you poor folks, think God is that cruel and will.

Edited August 10, 2006 by Budge

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1039956' date='Aug 8 2006, 10:15 PM']
Do we go demand"temporal" consequences for every wrong someone has done? When your kid is 18 do you present a bill for the things he broke when he was 3 years old? Have you demanded PAYBACK for every sin or wrongdoing someone had done against you?
In many cases it is impossible.

There is consequence of sin that happens, but the idea of the forgiver demanding payment for everything and applying this concept to God is horrendous. This denies God's eternal grace. Hate to tell you but humans are so imperfect compared to the perfection and glory of God, paying back for their sins is impossible. This is why Jesus went to the cross to save us.
[/quote]
God doesn't "demand" temporal punishment from us. It's a consequence. No one can deny that even though forgiven, sin has it's effects. David's sin with the wife of Uriah led to terrible consequnces. God forgave him, but the consequences remained. Now, God has to cleanse us of those things, one way or another. He can forgive it and just wipe us clean, but guess what...that would be the SAME THING as purgatory. Purgatory is a necessary fact of the Christian faith.

[quote name='Budge' post='1040865' date='Aug 10 2006, 11:29 AM']
It sure will, why?

Because Purgatory is really another name for hell.

Satan has in his grasp all the poor Catholics who think one day they will get out.

What brings me so much sorrow, is that all of you know so little of the love of God, that you believe even after you have suffered on your deathbed, and MOST people suffer immensely as they die even if its years in a nursing home or the pain of a sudden death, that instead of God the loving Father welcoming you home in His arms, he sends you off to some horrible place of 10 times the pain of earth. I wouldnt even send my dog or my worse human enemy to that place but somehow you poor folks, think God is that cruel and will.
[/quote]
God is always a loving Father. He doesn't appear as a loving Father if you deserve it and as a condemning judge if you deserve that. His fatherly characteristics are part of His being. We choose to reject the loving Father and we send ourselves to hell.

God is not cruel and none of us is saying that, so stop putting words in our mouths. God is loving and forgiving, but we are imperfect, no matter how hard we try, and in order to cleanse us, cleansing has to go on (as if that isn't obvious). Purgatory is another word for cleansing. I don't see why you're obsessed with the notion of purgatory as punishment...it's really not. It's reward. It's the reward of God's mercy allowing you, in hope, to come close to Him by removing all that holds you back. Discipline isn't bad. To use Thess's analogy, a boy who breaks a neighbor's window may be forgiven, but still has to pay it, not that it's demanded of him by a tyrant, but that it is the responsible thing to do, and as that child works to earn money to pay for the new window, even though his father is telling him to do so, he grows closer to his father, because he grows in respect and love for him. Protestant objections to purgatory is nothing but an objection to responsibility.

[Tarcisius]

"
What brings me so much sorrow, is that all of you know so little of the love of God, that you believe even after you have suffered on your deathbed, and MOST people suffer immensely as they die even if its years in a nursing home or the pain of a sudden death, that instead of God the loving Father welcoming you home in His arms, he sends you off to some horrible place of 10 times the pain of earth. I wouldnt even send my dog or my worse human enemy to that place but somehow you poor folks, think God is that cruel and will."


Purgatory is a gift, I am glad that If I am worthy I will have the chance to puify myself because surley I will not be perfect at death.

[Budge]

[quote]Purgatory is a gift, I am glad that If I am worthy I will have the chance to puify myself because surley I will not be perfect at death.[/quote]

You just wrote that Purgatory has suffering 10 times worse then Earth.

why would God do that to any of us?

That means Purgatory is ten times worth then dying of cancer and having your bones rot within you. Have you ever seen anyone die? it is not a pretty sight. To believe in a God, that would make that 10s worse for some idea of "purificiation" is horrendous and it is also unscriptural.
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Hbr 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
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Hbr 1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when [b]he had by himself purged our sins,[/b] sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;[/font]

Jesus Christ came to save us.

It is SATAN that wants you to suffer.

Edited August 10, 2006 by Budge