Purgatory

[Justified Saint]

[quote name='Budge' post='1039956' date='Aug 8 2006, 06:15 PM']

In many cases it is impossible.

[/quote]

You'd be surprised what God can pull off.

People also say its pretty ridiculous to pray (how does God keep track of all them prayers, and doesn't he know everyone's mind anyway -- how does he do that?)

[Budge]

Do you really see God, as holding a ledger of every sin youve ever committed and then making you PAYBACK for every sin?

If even our earthly best friend, doesnt hand us a bill or demand payback everytime we transgress against them, why would you expect so little of God?


I feel sad for those who believe this.

[thessalonian]

No budge that's not it. God wants to heal the wound created by the sin. The addictions and broken relationships. Do these go away after the sin is forgiven by God? They must be gone in heaven.

Edited August 9, 2006 by thessalonian

[uruviel]

exactly. By His mercy and love for us He heals the results of sin by suffering. It is MOST perfectly just, I believe it so pity me but by comparing what humans do to what God does is not right. Saying your friend wouldn't do it why would God doesn't mean anything, God isn't just a human friend.

[pyranima]

If you think about it, it makes sense that purgatory is painful. purgatory is a place of purification, on earth we are purified and think about it... its painful. why would it stop being painful just because our bodies die? Purgatory is not a matter of Karma, its a matter of cleansing.

PURGATORY

Lk 12:58-59; 1 Cor 3:15; Mt 5:25-26 ... temporary agony.
Heb 12:6-11 ... God’s painful discipline.
Mt 12:32 ... no forgiveness ... nor in the age to come.
1 Pet 3:18-20 ... might be purgatory (limbo?).
1 Pet 4:6 ... preached to the dead.
Rev 21:27 ... nothing unclean shall enter heaven.
Heb 12:23 ... souls in heaven are perfect.
Col 1:24; 2 Sam 12:13-14 ... “extra” suffering.
2 Mac 12:43-46 ... sacrifice for the dead.
2 Tim 1:15-18 ... prayer for Onesiphorus for “that Day.”
1 Jn 5:14-17 ... mortal/venial sins

[Tarcisius]

The suffering in purgatory will be worse than 10 times the worst pain that could be felt on earth. Every unperfected soul must suffer to make it ready for the kingdom of God.

[Budge]

[quote]The suffering in purgatory will be worse than 10 times the worst pain that could be felt on earth[/quote]

It sure will, why?

Because Purgatory is really another name for hell.

Satan has in his grasp all the poor Catholics who think one day they will get out.

What brings me so much sorrow, is that all of you know so little of the love of God, that you believe even after you have suffered on your deathbed, and MOST people suffer immensely as they die even if its years in a nursing home or the pain of a sudden death, that instead of God the loving Father welcoming you home in His arms, he sends you off to some horrible place of 10 times the pain of earth. I wouldnt even send my dog or my worse human enemy to that place but somehow you poor folks, think God is that cruel and will.

Edited August 10, 2006 by Budge

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1039956' date='Aug 8 2006, 10:15 PM']
Do we go demand"temporal" consequences for every wrong someone has done? When your kid is 18 do you present a bill for the things he broke when he was 3 years old? Have you demanded PAYBACK for every sin or wrongdoing someone had done against you?
In many cases it is impossible.

There is consequence of sin that happens, but the idea of the forgiver demanding payment for everything and applying this concept to God is horrendous. This denies God's eternal grace. Hate to tell you but humans are so imperfect compared to the perfection and glory of God, paying back for their sins is impossible. This is why Jesus went to the cross to save us.
[/quote]
God doesn't "demand" temporal punishment from us. It's a consequence. No one can deny that even though forgiven, sin has it's effects. David's sin with the wife of Uriah led to terrible consequnces. God forgave him, but the consequences remained. Now, God has to cleanse us of those things, one way or another. He can forgive it and just wipe us clean, but guess what...that would be the SAME THING as purgatory. Purgatory is a necessary fact of the Christian faith.

[quote name='Budge' post='1040865' date='Aug 10 2006, 11:29 AM']
It sure will, why?

Because Purgatory is really another name for hell.

Satan has in his grasp all the poor Catholics who think one day they will get out.

What brings me so much sorrow, is that all of you know so little of the love of God, that you believe even after you have suffered on your deathbed, and MOST people suffer immensely as they die even if its years in a nursing home or the pain of a sudden death, that instead of God the loving Father welcoming you home in His arms, he sends you off to some horrible place of 10 times the pain of earth. I wouldnt even send my dog or my worse human enemy to that place but somehow you poor folks, think God is that cruel and will.
[/quote]
God is always a loving Father. He doesn't appear as a loving Father if you deserve it and as a condemning judge if you deserve that. His fatherly characteristics are part of His being. We choose to reject the loving Father and we send ourselves to hell.

God is not cruel and none of us is saying that, so stop putting words in our mouths. God is loving and forgiving, but we are imperfect, no matter how hard we try, and in order to cleanse us, cleansing has to go on (as if that isn't obvious). Purgatory is another word for cleansing. I don't see why you're obsessed with the notion of purgatory as punishment...it's really not. It's reward. It's the reward of God's mercy allowing you, in hope, to come close to Him by removing all that holds you back. Discipline isn't bad. To use Thess's analogy, a boy who breaks a neighbor's window may be forgiven, but still has to pay it, not that it's demanded of him by a tyrant, but that it is the responsible thing to do, and as that child works to earn money to pay for the new window, even though his father is telling him to do so, he grows closer to his father, because he grows in respect and love for him. Protestant objections to purgatory is nothing but an objection to responsibility.

[Tarcisius]

"
What brings me so much sorrow, is that all of you know so little of the love of God, that you believe even after you have suffered on your deathbed, and MOST people suffer immensely as they die even if its years in a nursing home or the pain of a sudden death, that instead of God the loving Father welcoming you home in His arms, he sends you off to some horrible place of 10 times the pain of earth. I wouldnt even send my dog or my worse human enemy to that place but somehow you poor folks, think God is that cruel and will."


Purgatory is a gift, I am glad that If I am worthy I will have the chance to puify myself because surley I will not be perfect at death.

[Budge]

[quote]Purgatory is a gift, I am glad that If I am worthy I will have the chance to puify myself because surley I will not be perfect at death.[/quote]

You just wrote that Purgatory has suffering 10 times worse then Earth.

why would God do that to any of us?

That means Purgatory is ten times worth then dying of cancer and having your bones rot within you. Have you ever seen anyone die? it is not a pretty sight. To believe in a God, that would make that 10s worse for some idea of "purificiation" is horrendous and it is also unscriptural.
[font="Lucida Console"]
Hbr 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
[/font]
[font="Lucida Console"]
Hbr 1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when [b]he had by himself purged our sins,[/b] sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;[/font]

Jesus Christ came to save us.

It is SATAN that wants you to suffer.

Edited August 10, 2006 by Budge

[Tarcisius]

Its not that God is doing that to us, we do it to ourself when we sin. It is our sins that are being purged. For me to be made perfect i would need to die to myself to my desires. What i dont accomplish on earth, will, if I am worthy be accomplished in purgatory.

You make it seem as though the pain and suffering is an insurmountable evil that God would not inflict. Its just pain, no matter how bad, anyone who knew anything about it would gladly suffer it a million years to experience the beatific vision. God loves us so dearly that he would take the time to purge us of our weaknesses instead of giving up on us.

[Tarcisius]

Its not that God is doing that to us, we do it to ourself when we sin. It is our sins that are being purged. For me to be made perfect i would need to die to myself to my desires. What i dont accomplish on earth, will, if I am worthy be accomplished in purgatory.

You make it seem as though the pain and suffering is an insurmountable evil that God would not inflict. Its just pain, no matter how bad, anyone who knew anything about it would gladly suffer it a million years to experience the beatific vision. God loves us so dearly that he would take the time to purge us of our weaknesses instead of giving up on us.

[Tarcisius]

Its not that God is doing that to us, we do it to ourself when we sin. It is our sins that are being purged. For me to be made perfect i would need to die to myself to my desires. What i dont accomplish on earth, will, if I am worthy be accomplished in purgatory.

You make it seem as though the pain and suffering is an insurmountable evil that God would not inflict. Its just pain, no matter how bad, anyone who knew anything about it would gladly suffer it a million years to experience the beatific vision. God loves us so dearly that he would take the time to purge us of our weaknesses instead of giving up on us.

[Tarcisius]

Its not that God is doing that to us, we do it to ourself when we sin. It is our sins that are being purged. For me to be made perfect i would need to die to myself to my desires. What i dont accomplish on earth, will, if I am worthy be accomplished in purgatory.

You make it seem as though the pain and suffering is an insurmountable evil that God would not inflict. Its just pain, no matter how bad, anyone who knew anything about it would gladly suffer it a million years to experience the beatific vision. God loves us so dearly that he would take the time to purge us of our weaknesses instead of giving up on us.

[Tarcisius]

Its not that God is doing that to us, we do it to ourself when we sin. It is our sins that are being purged. For me to be made perfect i would need to die to myself to my desires. What i dont accomplish on earth, will, if I am worthy be accomplished in purgatory.

You make it seem as though the pain and suffering is an insurmountable evil that God would not inflict. Its just pain, no matter how bad, anyone who knew anything about it would gladly suffer it a million years to experience the beatific vision. God loves us so dearly that he would take the time to purge us of our weaknesses instead of giving up on us.

[Budge]

Better be careful with that reply button, you got 3 repeats up.


Y[quote]ou make it seem as though the pain and suffering is an insurmountable evil that God would not inflict. Its just pain, no matter how bad, anyone who knew anything about it would gladly suffer it a million years to experience the beatific vision. God loves us so dearly that he would take the time to purge us of our weaknesses instead of giving up on us.[/quote]

I dont know to be honest with you, your god scares me, and I dont mean in the good biblical way but that in I definitely see him as a cruel ogre. That is not a god I could love. I love the One True God beyond anything, even beyond my most loving human relationships. Do you know this love or do you see God as just one to make you suffer? Thats not love.

A million years of suffering?

I dont think even the worlds worst masochist would want to sign up for that.

If you do not become born again, eternal suffering beyond that of a million years may be where you end up.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1040956' date='Aug 10 2006, 03:20 PM']
You just wrote that Purgatory has suffering 10 times worse then Earth.

why would God do that to any of us?

That means Purgatory is ten times worth then dying of cancer and having your bones rot within you. Have you ever seen anyone die? it is not a pretty sight. To believe in a God, that would make that 10s worse for some idea of "purificiation" is horrendous and it is also unscriptural.
[font="Lucida Console"]
Hbr 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
[/font]
[font="Lucida Console"]
Hbr 1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when [b]he had by himself purged our sins,[/b] sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;[/font]

Jesus Christ came to save us.

It is SATAN that wants you to suffer.
[/quote]

First off, I don't think purgatory is worse than any earthly pain. I think it's better...not lighter, necessarily, but better, because you are filled with a hope greater than any hope on earth.

Also, again, purgatory is NOT God punishing people for their sins. Purgatory is God perfecting His people with the fires of His love.

Finally, yes, Jesus came to save us. He saves us by taking away the guilt of our sins and by removing us from the sins to which we cling. Even though I may go and steal something, and repent, I may still have an inclination to stealing things...it may cross my mind...I may think about it a bit...etc. Jesus not only wants us to be free of our sins, but to be cleansed of anything that distracts us from Him, namely, our attachment to the world and the sins of the world. Purgatory does even MORE than Protestants want to be done to them. It detaches us from the world and from sins so that we have no desire to do anything but please God. Forgiveness alone doesn't take away the desire to sin.

[Anthony]

[quote name='Budge' post='1041001' date='Aug 10 2006, 01:53 PM']
Better be careful with that reply button, you got 3 repeats up.
Y

I dont know to be honest with you, your god scares me, and I dont mean in the good biblical way but that in I definitely see him as a cruel ogre. That is not a god I could love. I love the One True God beyond anything, even beyond my most loving human relationships. Do you know this love or do you see God as just one to make you suffer? Thats not love.

A million years of suffering?

I dont think even the worlds worst masochist would want to sign up for that.

If you do not become born again, eternal suffering beyond that of a million years may be where you end up.


[/quote]

We have the same God. We (Catholics) are Christians too.

[Budge]

Anothony Im not sure about that.

God will welcome me home when I die...

The Catholic god according to Catholic teachings will SEND You to FIRE.
[quote]
Purgatory is God perfecting His people with the fires of His love.[/quote]

Being sent to FIRE when you DIE is NOT A GOOD THING.

[font="Arial Black"]Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.[/font]

[Crusader_4]

Budge, hows it going?
We must remember that not even the most enlightened Catholic on earth has a definite idea of the triumph of heaven, let alone on the concept of purgatory. It is a part of Catholic theology but it is more of an important sidenote than an essential dogma. The catechism itself does not go into great detail about its logistics, because we simply do not know enough about it (purgatory and even heaven to some extent). We can understand the underlying facts about it, and its purpose but how that purpose is brought about is still an uknown. For all we know it may only last a split second as when one dies his reality fundementally changes. Nor does it cheapen or dismiss the ultimate sacrifice of our blessed Lord on the Cross, that is for the forgiveness of sins and our salvation, purgatory does not save only prepare. Much like on earth we need to prepare for Christ our hearts if they are not fully prepared to experience Christ in his fullness in heaven (as we may be tainted with our sinful nature and imperfections) Christ must help prepare us for that. It may not even be painful, we simply dont know. however, there is an ancient Catholic tradition that there is some sort of pain attached with this preparing step in our journey. My assumption is that it comes from on earth where man must suffer often to be brought closer to Christ and rid himself of his imperfections, or at least deal with them. So perhaps our forefathers assumed that this would also be a reality in our death as nothing imperfect can enter heaven (see letter to the Hebrews), and when we die we are obvisiouly not perfect thus something has to happen to make us perfect whether it is painful or not is a matter of debate and whether it is instant or a set term is unknown, much like how we know heaven is eternal but we really cannot fathom it in our mortal minds. nor even begin to understand how it works. It is like trying to fit the ocean in a pail.

-Crusader_4 (William)