reliance on mary

[dairygirl4u2c]

Sometimes I still pray to Mary. Like it's been said, asking her to pray isn't any different than asking others to pray for you. Sometimes my mindset bothers me though. When Mary magnifies Jesus, it's good, but sometimes it seems like I pray to Jesus for certain things, but in the back of my mind I'm thinking, if I really wanna get things done, I'll pray a lot more to Mary. That troubles me...

thoughts?

[mortify]

Consider this passage:

"Is any one of you in trouble? He should pray. Is anyone happy? Let him sing songs of praise. Is any one of you sick?[b] He should call the elders of the church to pray over him[/b] and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord." (James 5: 13-14)

But why?? Isn't Jesus the only mediator? Can't I just pray to Him for healing? Why would I call a bunch of men to pray for me?

This is why:

"The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective." (James 5: 16)

And how much greater is the prayer and intercession of the Mother of God!!

When we ask a Saint to pray for us (that is what we mean by praying to saints, btw, asking them for intercesssion) we are saying to God, "Lord, I am not Holy, so I am asking someone who is Holy, and who served you in ways that I have failed, to intercede behalf of myself. It is You who ultimately answers my prayer though they intercede for me."

Now why is intercession a good thing and pleases God (1 tim 2:3)? Because when we pray for eachother, and seek eachother's intercession, we are infact loving our neighbor; we are showing fraternal love for one another. We are helping eachother get to kingdom of heaven. (ever hear of the communion of saints? )


anyway...yea...dont feel bad. You prolly feel bad because you've heard so many bad things about Mary and asking her for intercession that its been ingrained in your heart.

I'll "intercede" for you

[pyranima]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1040235' date='Aug 9 2006, 11:06 AM']
Sometimes I still pray to Mary. Like it's been said, asking her to pray isn't any different than asking others to pray for you. Sometimes my mindset bothers me though. When Mary magnifies Jesus, it's good, but sometimes it seems like I pray to Jesus for certain things, but in the back of my mind I'm thinking, if I really wanna get things done, I'll pray a lot more to Mary. That troubles me...

thoughts?
[/quote]


Praying to Mary is not bad, there are many Protestants that pray to Mary. however to pray to mary with the mindset you suggest is not good. we ask marry to interceed for us with the one intercessor between God and Man. We ask her to go to Jesus WITH us NOT for us. it is true that as his mother Mary would be more influental than all the other Saints combine, but She is still only human. have you read "true devotion to Mary" that is a good book that i think will help you to grow in love with Christ through the blessed Mother.

Pray this pray to Mary

"Holy Mother of God for me in your womb that i may come to know and love your son Jesus Christ more pure and more fully."

Remember you can't go to Mary without her pointing to Jesus.

[Tarcisius]

All grace comes from Christ through Mary. To ask her first is better for she will perfect your prayer before presenting it to her son. Asking for her help is different than anyone else, she is far more perfect, loving and everything else. When you feel like It is Mary who is doing something for you then you are wrong, she is only getting her son to do it for you.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1040235' date='Aug 9 2006, 02:06 PM']
Sometimes I still pray to Mary. Like it's been said, asking her to pray isn't any different than asking others to pray for you. Sometimes my mindset bothers me though. When Mary magnifies Jesus, it's good, but sometimes it seems like I pray to Jesus for certain things, but in the back of my mind I'm thinking, if I really wanna get things done, I'll pray a lot more to Mary. That troubles me...

thoughts?
[/quote]
You cannot love Mary too much, so long as you love her Son more. Don't be scrupulous about giving the right "time" to each person you invoke in your prayers. Prayer comes from the heart.

[Budge]

[quote]When Mary magnifies Jesus, it's good, but sometimes it seems like I pray to Jesus for certain things, but in the back of my mind I'm thinking, if I really wanna get things done, I'll pray a lot more to Mary. That troubles me...[/quote]

You are troubled because the Holy Spirit is trying to warn you that we are to go to Jesus Christ alone in prayer. Jesus is our ONLY MEDIATOR. That is what the Bible teaches. Mary is in heaven, but Mary cant help you. Do you believe Mary knows your heart like God does? It is impossible for Mary to know the heart of millions of people, for she is human and not omniprecenst like God

[size=5]1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;.[/size]

Can Mary know your heart like Jesus can and the deepest desires of your soul?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1040851' date='Aug 10 2006, 11:07 AM']
You are troubled because the Holy Spirit is trying to warn you that we are to go to Jesus Christ alone in prayer. Jesus is our ONLY MEDIATOR. That is what the Bible teaches. Mary is in heaven, but Mary cant help you. Do you believe Mary knows your heart like God does? It is impossible for Mary to know the heart of millions of people, for she is human and not omniprecenst like God

[size=5]1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;.[/size]

Can Mary know your heart like Jesus can and the deepest desires of your soul?
[/quote]
1. Jesus is the sole mediator. All other intercessors, by virtue or their Baptism, are incorporated into His priesthood (see Peter) and therefore are able to share in His mediatorship. They are not independent mediators; they are only mediators in as much as they are incorporated into Christ, who is the one mediator. All intercessions go through Him.

2. It is God's omniscience, not His omnipresence, that allows Him to know all hearts.

3. Mary is human and therefore finite. This is most certainly true. However, so is creation. Therefore, the number and depth of all hearts is finite. Therefore, if God makes Mary able to read the deepest desires of every soul, He is not violating her limited capacity as a creature. Rather, He is making her a powerful enough creature to see all creation. This is not inconsistent with her limits, since, as I have stated, creation is finite.

4. Mary's heart is bound to Christ's (cf. the words of Simeon). If God allows, she may certainly know all hearts as her Son does.

[avemaria40]

When I ask the Mother of God to pray for me, I end up closer to Jesus. Why? Because Mary always points to Jesus. I found that saying the Rosary helped me grow closer to God and that's always a good thing.


Before I became Catholic, when I learned about the saints, I always asked for the intercession of St. Joan of Arc (still do) and one day I realized, you don't give them worship, you are only asking them to pray for you. It's the same with Mary. God alone I adore and worship, but it doesn't mean I can't ask anyone (on heaven or on earth) to pray for me.

Edited August 10, 2006 by avemaria40

[Budge]

Many Marian Catholics I know of open the door to the occult with their constant prayers to Mary.

On my board we have about 3 or 4 Marian Catholics who have shown up over the years, all of them attest to visions and dead people [actually demons because the Bible says there is an unbreakable veil between living and dead] showing up in their living rooms.

There is a reason for that.

How do you know you are praying to Mary, how can you know she can hear you? Does Mary answer your prayers. You have made her the center of your heart. God is a jealous God, there is no room for any other. You can delude yourself and say here, I am getting closer to Jesus by saying Hail Mary this and Mary this and that, but it is simply not true.

I have noticed that Jesus is always protrayed as a Baby--powerless and or dead on the cross, in Catholic pictures with Mary.

Why do you need Mary's intercession when you have God who made the entire universe, at your disposal to pray too?

This is another thing, Catholicism so twists the nature of God, they make God out to be someone that needs his mother to approach him to appease him.

You see Mary as the caring one, and Jesus as the one to be appeased who wont listen to you.

How sad is that.

This is the Jesus I believe in...
[size=5]
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, [b]all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
[/b]
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and [b]ye shall find rest unto your souls.[/b]
[/size]

Why are you all RESTING in Mary?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

First off, this is quite a shift in your argument. Do you mean to abandon your previous points?

[quote name='Budge' post='1040974' date='Aug 10 2006, 03:35 PM']
Many Marian Catholics I know of open the door to the occult with their constant prayers to Mary.

On my board we have about 3 or 4 Marian Catholics who have shown up over the years, all of them attest to visions and dead people [actually demons because the Bible says there is an unbreakable veil between living and dead] showing up in their living rooms.[/quote]

You can't just come here and tell us something like this that could be very well just made up. Additionally, there are some who may be tricked by demons. It happens. St. Padre Pio, however, was able to tell when an apparition of Mary was really the devil. If God deems you worthy of a vision, He won't let you be fooled...and if you are, it's in good conscience. By the way, the saints aren't dead, they're alive in Christ. They do not fall behind the veil. That is why the rich man tried to send Lazarus to his brothers, because he knew that he himself was cut off, but that Lazarus was not.

[quote]How do you know you are praying to Mary, how can you know she can hear you? Does Mary answer your prayers. You have made her the center of your heart. God is a jealous God, there is no room for any other. You can delude yourself and say here, I am getting closer to Jesus by saying Hail Mary this and Mary this and that, but it is simply not true.[/quote]

I am praying for Mary's intercession because that is my intention. I can't pray for so-and-so's intercession when I really meant to pray for another person's. The reason this can't happen is because God is allowing the prayers to come through; He's operating the switchboard, as it were. What you are saying is that God misdirects prayers. Now, I could worship something that isn't God, thinking it was, but that's irrelevant because we don't worship Mary.

[quote]I have noticed that Jesus is always protrayed as a Baby--powerless and or dead on the cross, in Catholic pictures with Mary.[/quote]

Jesus came as a baby and willingly died on the cross. I don't see how portraying Him in a way He Himself chose to be is a bad thing. When He is seen as a baby in Mary's arms, the point isn't that Mary is much greater, but that God was so wonderful that He humbled Himself even to the point of suckling at a human's breast. When He is seen on the cross with His mother weeping, the point isn't that He dies and she still lives, but that He, her God, has died for her, and she is grieved. You see these images and your hatred of the Blessed Virgin outrages you.

[quote]Why do you need Mary's intercession when you have God who made the entire universe, at your disposal to pray too?[/quote]

Well, I suppose St. Paul should probably have asked that question, but he asked the recipients of his letters to pray for him. God wants us to pray for each other. By sharing with us, not out of necessity, but out of charity, the ability to intercede, Christ assured that humans would continue to care for one another and continue to care about true communion, rather than making it simply a "me and Jesus" faith.

[quote]This is another thing, Catholicism so twists the nature of God, they make God out to be someone that needs his mother to approach him to appease him.[/quote]

That is simply not true. God doesn't need anything. However, out of His great love for His most perfect creature, He listens willingly to her and lavishes her with honors. She, likewise, asks for nothing but those things in accordance with His will.

[quote]You see Mary as the caring one, and Jesus as the one to be appeased who wont listen to you.[/quote]

That's just foolishness.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i do think you have some points about how catholics approach jesus, in fear, and in a way that they don't think anything will get done if they go to Him alone.

but where does the bible say there is an unbreakable veil between the living and the dead?

also, if you can't pray to mary that's one thing, but what do you think about asking others to pray with you for you? what if someone said why bother that when you can just pray to jesus?

[Theologian in Training]

Jesus is the Lord of the living and the dead. It happened when He destroyed death by rising again, thereby restoring the severance that occurred. Therefore, those that are alive and those that have died are no different, they can both intercede on our behalf. This is what is meant by the communion of the saints, for, if we ask friends and family here on earth to pray for us, why should it be any different to ask those in Heaven to do the same?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Budge' post='1040851' date='Aug 10 2006, 10:07 AM']
You are troubled because the Holy Spirit is trying to warn you that we are to go to Jesus Christ alone in prayer. Jesus is our ONLY MEDIATOR. That is what the Bible teaches. Mary is in heaven, but Mary cant help you. Do you believe Mary knows your heart like God does? It is impossible for Mary to know the heart of millions of people, for she is human and not omniprecenst like God

[size=5]1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;.[/size]

Can Mary know your heart like Jesus can and the deepest desires of your soul?
[/quote]
So you are afraid to ask anyone to pray for you? Are you afraid Jesus will be jealous or something?
There is one mediator, but there certainly be billions of intercessors
You forget we are members of the Body of Christ by virtue of our baptism, and we are instructed to ask for prayers.
Mary doesn't have to "know" my mind to pray for me.

[jswranch]

Budge,
Wasn't Jesus walking and talking with a dead guy at the Transfiguration when he spoke to Moses?
According to the bible, are those who die in the fullness of Christ's saving grace really dead?
Are we really departing from the pattern of Christ when we ask prayers of someone alive in Christ?

[Resurrexi]

[quote]I have noticed that Jesus is always protrayed as a Baby--powerless and or dead on the cross, in Catholic pictures with Mary.[/quote]

No, that's far from the truth. After the Crucifix, the most popular Catholic holy image is the Sacred Heart, in which Christ shows His heart to us. He is in no way powerless in that picture. He is also often portrayed as Christ the King, which focus on His omnipotence and Divine Nature, rather than His human nature.

[quote]What you are saying is that God misdirects prayers. Now, I could worship something that isn't God, thinking it was, but that's irrelevant because we don't worship Mary.[/quote]

Actually we [i]do[/i] worship Mary. The root of the word "worship" is "worth ship" or the state of being worthy. In it's most literal sense, worship means "veneration" rather than "adoration". I could say I worshipped my spouse if I had one, I can say I worship my father, I could say I worship the Pope, I could say I worship the wood of the Cross and it wouldn't be idolatary, because it would simply mean that I honour them and greatly respect them. You've probably heard this before, Budge, but here's what Catholics do. They worship/venerate/dulise Saints. They superworship/extravenerate/hyperdualise Mary as Dei Genetrix/God Bearer/Theotokos. The only two words in the English language that can describe the great praise, glorification, worship, and blessing we give to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit the Trinity One in Substance and Undivided are Adoration and Latria. Woship/Veneration/Dulia is infinitely below Adoration/Latria. We give to Deus more Praise, Thanksgiving and Worship than we would give to ten thousand Dei Genetrixi (is that the right word ending to make Genetrix plural/posessive?)

[Budge]

[quote]. That is why the rich man tried to send Lazarus to his brothers, because he knew that he himself was cut off, but that Lazarus was not.[/quote]

Reread that in the Bible again, Lazarus did not warn the brothers and the scripture basically says if those brothers wont listen to Moses, and Gods prophets why will they listen to anyone else?

[quote]your hatred of the Blessed Virgin outrages you.
[/quote]

I dont hate her. She is blessed, she just doesnt have the same attributes of God. She cannot hear prayers.

[quote]

Well, I suppose St. Paul should probably have asked that question, but he asked the recipients of his letters to pray for him. God wants us to pray for each other. By sharing with us, not out of necessity, but out of charity, the ability to intercede, Christ assured that humans would continue to care for one another and continue to care about true communion, rather than making it simply a "me and Jesus" faith.
[/quote]

Thats with people who are ALIVE on earth with you. And they are NOT intercessors, Jesus is our only intercessor.

Why does Catholicism direct its people to pray to the dead more then with each other?


[quote]Wasn't Jesus walking and talking with a dead guy at the Transfiguration when he spoke to Moses?
According to the bible, are those who die in the fullness of Christ's saving grace really dead?
Are we really departing from the pattern of Christ when we ask prayers of someone alive in Christ?

[/quote]

Jesus is God, different rules...

Those who die and are in heaven have eternal life but they are not alive to us.
[size=5]
Why would the Catholic church rather have members pray to dead men than to the living, all-powerful, prayer-answering God?[/size]

[Budge]

[quote]. That is why the rich man tried to send Lazarus to his brothers, because he knew that he himself was cut off, but that Lazarus was not.[/quote]

Reread that in the Bible again, Lazarus did not warn the brothers and the scripture basically says if those brothers wont listen to Moses, and Gods prophets why will they listen to anyone else?

[quote]your hatred of the Blessed Virgin outrages you.
[/quote]

I dont hate her. She is blessed, she just doesnt have the same attributes of God. She cannot hear prayers.

[quote]

Well, I suppose St. Paul should probably have asked that question, but he asked the recipients of his letters to pray for him. God wants us to pray for each other. By sharing with us, not out of necessity, but out of charity, the ability to intercede, Christ assured that humans would continue to care for one another and continue to care about true communion, rather than making it simply a "me and Jesus" faith.
[/quote]

Thats with people who are ALIVE on earth with you. And they are NOT intercessors, Jesus is our only intercessor.

Why does Catholicism direct its people to pray to the dead more then with each other?


[quote]Wasn't Jesus walking and talking with a dead guy at the Transfiguration when he spoke to Moses?
According to the bible, are those who die in the fullness of Christ's saving grace really dead?
Are we really departing from the pattern of Christ when we ask prayers of someone alive in Christ?

[/quote]

Jesus is God, different rules...

Those who die and are in heaven have eternal life but they are not alive to us.
[size=5]
Why would the Catholic church rather have members pray to dead men than to the living, all-powerful, prayer-answering God?[/size]

[Theologian in Training]

[quote]Those who die and are in heaven have eternal life but they are not alive to us.[/quote]

How so?

[CoffeeCatholic]

[quote name='Budge' post='1041427' date='Aug 11 2006, 10:52 AM']
Reread that in the Bible again, Lazarus did not warn the brothers and the scripture basically says if those brothers wont listen to Moses, and Gods prophets why will they listen to anyone else?[/quote]
Lazarus didn’t warn the brothers not because he couldn’t but because it is a well understood that those souls in eternal damnation can not have their prayers heard or answered. They are shut off from God’s grace, eternally, and therefore Lazarus had no ability to do anything for him because of the man’s soul, not Lazarus’. Therefore, if one of the living brother’s had prayed and asked Lazarus to intercede for the other brother’s, THEN Lazarus could have helped out. But no prayers are answered from souls in hell.

[quote]I dont hate her. She is blessed, she just doesnt have the same attributes of God. She cannot hear prayers. [/quote]
“hearing” and “answering” are very different in nature. Mary can very well hear our prayers, when we speak to her that is. However, she can not answer them. The only thing she can do is promote our case to her son, and, like someone else said “perfect” our prayers.
[quote]Thats with people who are ALIVE on earth with you. And they are NOT intercessors, Jesus is our only intercessor. [/quote]
Here is where you are very confused. Because in this one sentence you have reduced Jesus to merely human, and not at all divine, Yet further down we see that you do know about Christ’s Divinity. You have separated His two natures. Jesus IS God, and therefore His intercession would be illogical as one can not pleed a case to one’s self. However, since Jesus is both fully God, AND fully human, he IS our only mediator, as He is the only HUMAN who can fully communicate with GOD and the only part of GOD who can fully communicate with HUMANS. That is why all prayers go through Him, and not straight to God the Father, because Jesus is the great Mediator. Mediator and Intercessor are different.

[quote]Why does Catholicism direct its people to pray to the dead more then with each other?
Jesus is God, different rules... [/quote]

That is a good and worthy question. However, the answer is very simple. As Christians, we do not believe that anyone who dies in Christ is truly dead, but instead alive! And therefore, those persons who have died faithful to Jesus will experience eternal life. Ok, so now that we’ve knocked out the praying to the dead part, because we are obviously not praying to dead people, but people alive in Christ with dead bodies, you ask why do we do this more than asking our friends and families with LIVING bodies to pray for us? Because those who are alive in Christ at His eternal banquet are perfected in Christ, and are therefore eternally closer to Christ, while the souls here on earth are, even in our most perfected state, still separated from that eternal banquet until we leave this place that has been invaded and is held hostage by the Evil One. A simple and Biblical analogy. According to John 13:21-26, when at the last super it was announced that someone was going to betray the Lord, it was not Peter who asked Jesus, because of the seating arrangement. It was John, the “beloved”, who leaned in and spoke in Christ’s ear, “Who will it be, Lord?” and Christ answered. Now, presumably Peter or any of the other disciples could have asked, but Peter knew that he was too far away to be heard over the hubbub and noise of the feast. So he nodded to John to ask him because John was closer.

John interceded for Peter, doing a favor for him, asking the Lord a question for Him. John was closer to Christ, both physically and spiritually (as he is called the “one whom Jesus loved”) and although Jesus would probably have answered had Peter asked, Peter would have needed to do some heavy screaming, and perhaps gotten several other people from the end of the table to do a “1, 2, 3, ‘HEY JESUS!’” to get his attention. It was much easier just to get John to do it.

So we DO ask our friends here in the Church militant to pray for us. But asking one of Christ’s “Beloved” Saints will afford us a much quicker, and more intimate, reply.




[quote]Those who die and are in heaven have eternal life but they are not alive to us.[/quote]

What you mean is that their bodies have died and are decayed. Or at least most of them (as today is the feast of St. Clare, an incorruptible). But do you honestly believe that your grandmother (if she has died that is, or when she dies) is dead to you? In fact, when we say the phrase so-and-so “is dead to me” that means we are rejecting them and cutting them off from us, not that they are rejecting us and we are cut off from them. In effect, if you believe that your grandmother is dead once her body is placed in the ground, it is being very rude to your gramma. She wants to be part of your life just as much, if not more, now as before, but you are cutting her off, she is “dead to you” and therefore she can not be part of your life even from her place at Christ’s table. No, she does not want that, I am sure. She would want to be able to help you out in the next life just as much as she helped you out when she was on earth, and she is afforded the great honor of being able to do this much easier since she is now at the head of the table, resting on Jesus’ chest.

God Bless you!

ps:

[quote] Why would the Catholic church rather have members pray to dead men than to the living, all-powerful, prayer-answering God?
[/quote]

why not both?


[quote name='Budge' post='1041427' date='Aug 11 2006, 10:52 AM']
Reread that in the Bible again, Lazarus did not warn the brothers and the scripture basically says if those brothers wont listen to Moses, and Gods prophets why will they listen to anyone else?[/quote]
Lazarus didn’t warn the brothers not because he couldn’t but because it is a well understood that those souls in eternal damnation can not have their prayers heard or answered. They are shut off from God’s grace, eternally, and therefore Lazarus had no ability to do anything for him because of the man’s soul, not Lazarus’. Therefore, if one of the living brother’s had prayed and asked Lazarus to intercede for the other brother’s, THEN Lazarus could have helped out. But no prayers are answered from souls in hell.

[quote]I dont hate her. She is blessed, she just doesnt have the same attributes of God. She cannot hear prayers. [/quote]
“hearing” and “answering” are very different in nature. Mary can very well hear our prayers, when we speak to her that is. However, she can not answer them. The only thing she can do is promote our case to her son, and, like someone else said “perfect” our prayers.
[quote]Thats with people who are ALIVE on earth with you. And they are NOT intercessors, Jesus is our only intercessor. [/quote]
Here is where you are very confused. Because in this one sentence you have reduced Jesus to merely human, and not at all divine, Yet further down we see that you do know about Christ’s Divinity. You have separated His two natures. Jesus IS God, and therefore His intercession would be illogical as one can not pleed a case to one’s self. However, since Jesus is both fully God, AND fully human, he IS our only mediator, as He is the only HUMAN who can fully communicate with GOD and the only part of GOD who can fully communicate with HUMANS. That is why all prayers go through Him, and not straight to God the Father, because Jesus is the great Mediator. Mediator and Intercessor are different.

[quote]Why does Catholicism direct its people to pray to the dead more then with each other?
Jesus is God, different rules... [/quote]

That is a good and worthy question. However, the answer is very simple. As Christians, we do not believe that anyone who dies in Christ is truly dead, but instead alive! And therefore, those persons who have died faithful to Jesus will experience eternal life. Ok, so now that we’ve knocked out the praying to the dead part, because we are obviously not praying to dead people, but people alive in Christ with dead bodies, you ask why do we do this more than asking our friends and families with LIVING bodies to pray for us? Because those who are alive in Christ at His eternal banquet are perfected in Christ, and are therefore eternally closer to Christ, while the souls here on earth are, even in our most perfected state, still separated from that eternal banquet until we leave this place that has been invaded and is held hostage by the Evil One. A simple and Biblical analogy. According to John 13:21-26, when at the last super it was announced that someone was going to betray the Lord, it was not Peter who asked Jesus, because of the seating arrangement. It was John, the “beloved”, who leaned in and spoke in Christ’s ear, “Who will it be, Lord?” and Christ answered. Now, presumably Peter or any of the other disciples could have asked, but Peter knew that he was too far away to be heard over the hubbub and noise of the feast. So he nodded to John to ask him because John was closer.

John interceded for Peter, doing a favor for him, asking the Lord a question for Him. John was closer to Christ, both physically and spiritually (as he is called the “one whom Jesus loved”) and although Jesus would probably have answered had Peter asked, Peter would have needed to do some heavy screaming, and perhaps gotten several other people from the end of the table to do a “1, 2, 3, ‘HEY JESUS!’” to get his attention. It was much easier just to get John to do it.

So we DO ask our friends here in the Church militant to pray for us. But asking one of Christ’s “Beloved” Saints will afford us a much quicker, and more intimate, reply.




[quote]Those who die and are in heaven have eternal life but they are not alive to us.[/quote]

What you mean is that their bodies have died and are decayed. Or at least most of them (as today is the feast of St. Clare, an incorruptible). But do you honestly believe that your grandmother (if she has died that is, or when she dies) is dead to you? In fact, when we say the phrase so-and-so “is dead to me” that means we are rejecting them and cutting them off from us, not that they are rejecting us and we are cut off from them. In effect, if you believe that your grandmother is dead once her body is placed in the ground, it is being very rude to your gramma. She wants to be part of your life just as much, if not more, now as before, but you are cutting her off, she is “dead to you” and therefore she can not be part of your life even from her place at Christ’s table. No, she does not want that, I am sure. She would want to be able to help you out in the next life just as much as she helped you out when she was on earth, and she is afforded the great honor of being able to do this much easier since she is now at the head of the table, resting on Jesus’ chest.

God Bless you!

ps:

[quote] Why would the Catholic church rather have members pray to dead men than to the living, all-powerful, prayer-answering God?
[/quote]

why not both?

[Budge]

[quote]There shall not be found among you [any one] that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, [or] that useth divination [or] an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, [b]or a consulter with familiar spirits[/b], or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things [are] an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
Deuteronomy 18:10 (KJV)[/quote]

Familiar spirits means your Grandma by the way.

We are told NOT to talk to anyone who has died on this earth and gone on to WHERE EVER.


Speaking of my grandmother:

[quote]
She wants to be part of your life just as much, if not more, now as before, [b]but you are cutting her off, she is “dead to you” and therefore she can not be part of your life even from her place at Christ’s table. [/b]No, she does not want that, I am sure. She would want to be able to help you out in the next life just as much as she helped you out when she was on earth, and she is afforded the great honor of being able to do this much easier since she is now at the head of the table, resting on Jesus’ chest. [/quote]

According to this logic I may as well whip out a Ouija board and page my own grandmother. The one grandmother I have who died, I do not know where she is, I dont know what her fruits were or even her true religious beliefs. I grew up long distance from her and she died by the time I was 2. I hope she made it to heaven...but she is NOT a part of my life and I have no way of knowing for sure where she ended up. I dont even know what religious beliefs she held or didnt hold.

Saying that dead people are part of your life, especially ones you didnt even know is foolishness. Even in a persons family there are endless generations that lived 200-300-400 years before us. Once someone is dead, they are removed from us and the Bible says this also...[b]{One thing Ive noticed about Catholicism is the tinge of ancestor worship}[/b]

You folks really need to study your Bibles...and stop messing around with familar spirits.


But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.[size=5] And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.[/size]
Luke 16:25-26 (KJV)

Reread that again...

[font="Arial Black"][size=5] And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.[/size]
[/font]

There is a Great GULF FIXED between those who have passed out [all people who have died].

This means grandma cant hear your prayers, this means that Mary cant hear them.[i] I hope Mary cant hear them because thousands of Hail Mary every seconds sounds more like hell then heaven, [/i]and any other human in heaven who has died on earth cant hear you either.