reliance on mary

[Donna]

I go about my life, always ignoring my siblings and mother - after all, only father is head of the house.

If I pay them any mind, father will become jealous and I shall be guilty of familial worship.
.......................................................................................................

Thousands of Hail Mary's every day sound like scripture which you claim to venerate.

[avemaria40]

[quote name='Budge' post='1040974' date='Aug 10 2006, 02:35 PM']

I have noticed that Jesus is always protrayed as a Baby--powerless and or dead on the cross, in Catholic pictures with Mary.

[/quote]


I've seen pictures of Jesus and Mary where Jesus isn't a baby or dead on the cross. In quite a few of them, they are standing together in a glorified state.

[dairygirl4u2c]

That great chasm citation with Lazarous is about the chasm between Heaven and Hell. The man being spoken to had died.


I'm not sure what to htink about your cite from Deuteronomy though. It's pretty ambiguous what's being referred to, though it does appear to have some weight in favor of your argument.

But the passage before that citation talksabout how one shouldn't do what sinful countries do. If do what they do is passing through fire as your quote says, then all that talk to teh dead in order to live like a sinful country is wshat is wrong.

If you can clearly tell me what passing throug hfire, and everything else before and after that passage, the meaning of the whole passage, means, then you'll have a foundation for that passage. As it is, it's too uncear, and if anythingmeans different that nyou say it does

Edited August 12, 2006 by dairygirl4u2c

[mortify]

[quote name='Budge' post='1041420' date='Aug 11 2006, 08:48 AM']
I dont hate her. She is blessed, she just doesnt have the same attributes of God. She cannot hear prayers.
Thats with people who are ALIVE on earth with you. And they are NOT intercessors, Jesus is our only intercessor.
[/quote]

How can you forbid what sacred scripture encourages?


"I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, [b]intercession[/b] and thanksgiving be made for everyone"
(1 Tim 2:1)

And what does sacred scripture say about intecession?

(Since you love large font let me hand it to you)

[b][size=4]"This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."
(1 Tim 2:3)[/size][/b]

And as for hearing prayers, how is it that St John was able to hear the prayers of the people of the world while he was in heaven? (revelations 5:13)

[quote]
Why does Catholicism direct its people to pray to the dead more then with each other?
Jesus is God, different rules...
[/quote]

They are not dead but alive in Christ.

What greater things we could do for eachother in glory with Christ than what we do here on earth! When the unholy seek the holy for intercession it shows God our humility and makes Him happy because it shows fraternal love.

[quote]
Those who die and are in heaven have eternal life but they are not alive to us.
[/quote]

Were Moses and Elijah alive during the Transfiguration?

[chris]

Budge...You just dont like to listen do you. You remind me of who solomon warns his sons against in the proverbs. You do alot more aspousing than you do listening. And thats dangerous to your spiritual health and wellbeing. The wise man isnt always the quick one to point out faults.

He who loves instructions, loves knowledge; but he who hates reproof is stupid.(Proverbs 12:1)

You know budge we didnt come to you with our issues. You just stuck your nose in and tried to conform us or portray some silly oppinion.

We trust that when Christ tells us that the church is the pillar and foundations and that the gates of hell will not prevail against it that we can have faith in our church and what she teaches. NOT YOU. The church has been teaching this stuff for over 2000 years when Christ established it in 33AD your Christianity has only been around for a few years. We have been around since the time of Christ. You around the times of Luther and Calvin, 1517. Thats it. You dont know more than us. And its not a battle to win us over. Stop causeing another brother/sister to stumble because even Jesus warns people of that.

[corban711]

{One thing Ive noticed about Catholicism is the tinge of ancestor worship}


you may have noticed this about individual Catholics who do not know or practice their faith...but you surely did not notice this about Catholicism because it does not teach this. I would say rather that you have seen Catholics pray to "dead people" as you refer to them and mistakenly believe they are borderline worshipping their ancestors.



btw...anyone else notice this thread has moved quite a bit from reliance on Mary specifically to a debate about whether we worship dead people? i like the question of reliance/pray to Mary much better i love Mary! maybe another thread is needed? i don't know...there really hasn't been a lot of posts so maybe its not a big deal..

[CoffeeCatholic]

[quote name='Budge' post='1041676' date='Aug 11 2006, 05:38 PM']
Familiar spirits means your Grandma by the way. [/quote]

no, familiar spirits means demons. That's quite certain from the original translation. You have this point very wrong


[quote]According to this logic I may as well whip out a Ouija board and page my own grandmother. [/quote]

if you didn't need ouija board to speak with your grandmother before her death,why now? to use one would be to loose faith in the Lord's word that your grandmother will hear you.

[quote] The one grandmother I have who died, I do not know where she is, I dont know what her fruits were or even her true religious beliefs. I grew up long distance from her and she died by the time I was 2. I hope she made it to heaven...but she is NOT a part of my life and I have no way of knowing for sure where she ended up. I dont even know what religious beliefs she held or didnt hold. [/quote]
I am truly sorry. I have a grandmother in a simalar situation although still living. I will pray for the soul of your grandmother tonight.

[quote]{One thing Ive noticed about Catholicism is the tinge of ancestor worship}[/quote]
one thing about protestants is that they are the only, yes ONLY, religion on this planet that does not venerate the deceased. and the reason? Luther didn't like that the church had so many statues of Saints because he thought it was poor use of their funds. Monetarily, he was probably right, we could have been helping the plague folk and what not. But seriously, that's a horrible reason to not want to continue a relationship with a loved on, simply because some dead guy didn't like where the money was going.

[quote]You folks really need to study your Bibles...[/quote]

You assume i haven't, when in fact I spent 20 years as a "Sola Scriptura" Christian just like yourself. Oh, and there are 10 books that I can bet I'm way more familiar with than you are. :-D

[quote]and stop messing around with familar spirits. [/quote]
i'm not, but thanks for the advice

To all readers: The following is a near perfect example of the "Big Lie Philosophy" as used and described by Hitler during the war. In this philosophy, the person states the same "lie" over and over again, as loud and abrupt as possible, until finally people give in and say "oh, well i've heard it so many times, it must be true". It works. Please watch out. Our society uses this philosophy against us quite a lot. Imagine what the world would be like if we weren't bombarded with people telling us that condoms were great every 10 seconds. Nobody would use them, because they're horrible!

To Budge: I'm sorry you didn't understand my point that I already stated on this verse. If you would like it explained more clearly, please let me know, otherwise, please re-read my above comment, and if you have a proper retorte of that arguement, let me know.
[quote]
But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.
Luke 16:25-26 (KJV)

Reread that again...

And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.

There is a Great GULF FIXED between those who have passed out [all people who have died].[/quote]


[quote]This means grandma cant hear your prayers, this means that Mary cant hear them. I hope Mary cant hear them because thousands of Hail Mary every seconds sounds more like hell then heaven, and any other human in heaven who has died on earth cant hear you either.
[/quote]

You forget, I never said that my grandmother could or would answer my prayers. I simply said that she could hear them. This means that she is able to listen to me when i speak, and to pray for me just like she did when she was alive. it makes perfect sence for her to do so, as we are creatures created to love and care for one another, and that should and will not stop after death, providing we get to heaven. In fact, since our true nature is but an image of God's, then it will be magnified with Him, which means we get to love and care for all creatures in heaven and on earth even more than before! How wonderful!!!!

[pyranima]

[quote name='Budge' post='1040974' date='Aug 10 2006, 12:35 PM']
Many Marian Catholics I know of open the door to the occult with their constant prayers to Mary.

On my board we have about 3 or 4 Marian Catholics who have shown up over the years, all of them attest to visions and dead people [actually demons because the Bible says there is an unbreakable veil between living and dead] showing up in their living rooms.

There is a reason for that.

How do you know you are praying to Mary, how can you know she can hear you? Does Mary answer your prayers. You have made her the center of your heart. God is a jealous God, there is no room for any other. You can delude yourself and say here, I am getting closer to Jesus by saying Hail Mary this and Mary this and that, but it is simply not true.

I have noticed that Jesus is always protrayed as a Baby--powerless and or dead on the cross, in Catholic pictures with Mary.

Why do you need Mary's intercession when you have God who made the entire universe, at your disposal to pray too?

This is another thing, Catholicism so twists the nature of God, they make God out to be someone that needs his mother to approach him to appease him.

You see Mary as the caring one, and Jesus as the one to be appeased who wont listen to you.

How sad is that.

This is the Jesus I believe in...
[size=5]
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, [b]all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
[/b]
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and [b]ye shall find rest unto your souls.[/b]
[/size]

Why are you all RESTING in Mary?
[/quote]
where is your board?

[memory-singer]

[quote name='Tarcisius' post='1040843' date='Aug 10 2006, 06:53 AM']
All grace comes from Christ through Mary. To ask her first is better for she will perfect your prayer before presenting it to her son. Asking for her help is different than anyone else, she is far more perfect, loving and everything else. When you feel like It is Mary who is doing something for you then you are wrong, she is only getting her son to do it for you.
[/quote]

Whenever I pray to Mary, I get the answer she gave to the servants at Cana: Do whatever He tells you.

Works for me.

[Lounge Daddy]

this is a good thread - BUMP

[Budge]

[quote]All grace comes from Christ through Mary.[/quote]

That is totally wrong.

No where does the Bible say that Mary is the middleman {woman} for God's Grace.

Jesus Christ is the ONLY Mediator.

[quote]8) Leo XIII, Parta humano generi, Apostolic Letter, Sept 8, 1901, ASS 34, 1901, 195.

So may the most powerful Virgin Mother, who once 'cooperated in love that the faithful might be born in the Church', be even now the means and mediatrix of our salvation. [Citing St. Augustine, De sancta Virginitate 6.][/quote]



No links or pics from chick trash -cmom

[Seven77]

[quote name='Budge' post='1046566' date='Aug 20 2006, 05:54 AM']
That is totally wrong.

No where does the Bible say that Mary is the middleman {woman} for God's Grace.

Jesus Christ is the ONLY Mediator.


No links or pics from chick trash -cmom
[/quote]

The Bible says Grace and Truth came from Jesus. Jesus was born of Mary (God sent His Son, born of a woman). Therefore we can say grace comes to us through Mary. Our one Mediator and High Priest was sent to us by God through Mary's womb.

Peace.

[Norseman82]

Budge,

Read Revelations 6:9-11 (assuming it also hasn't been excised from the Cliff's Notes version of the bible). The dead martyrs are crying out to God from under the altar for vendeance on earth fo rtheir martyrdom. And God is answering them. So dead people in Heaven are able to pray for us.

[peep]

I'm not realy praying for Mary's help, I'm praying or God's help through Mary.


I dunno if she can here my prayers. Thats a ponderable question...
Most of the time I think she can, however.

[Budge]

[quote]I'm not realy praying for Mary's help, I'm praying or God's help through Mary.[/quote]

Why not approach the throne yourself?
[font="Arial Black"]
Hbr 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.[/font][size=4]

[quote]
I dunno if she can here my prayers. Thats a ponderable question...
Most of the time I think she can, however[/quote]

With God you can be sure....Mary cannot hear you, she is a human being and doesnt even have the "mind" to hear a million Hail Marys at once. If she can, that means you have just given her the qualities of a goddess.

Remember what Jesus taught about Mary..

[b]Luk 11:27 ¶ And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed [is] the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.

Luk 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed [are] they that hear the word of God, and keep it.[/b]

Pray to God, not to Mary.

[brendan1104]

See post #39.

Edited August 31, 2006 by brendan1104

[Budge]

Woman...

Ever noticed in the Bible that Jesus NEVER calls Mary...

MOTHER?

{and that verse is about him turning Mary over to the care of John}

[brendan1104]

See post below.

Edited August 31, 2006 by brendan1104

[brendan1104]

[b]Protestant's Objection:[/b]
Catholics pay too much attention to Mary/shouldn't be devoted to her. She's not really our Mother.

[b]Scriptural "Proof":[/b]
"And it came to pass, as he spoke these things, a certain woman from the crowd, lifting up her voice, said to him: Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee smell of elderberries. But he said: Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it." - Luke, 11:27, 28

[b]Catholic's Answer:[/b]
We can never pay too much attention to the Mother of our Lord, nor not be devoted to her. Marian devotion is scriptural:

[b]Scriptural Proof:[/b]
"And blessed art thou that hast believed, because those things shall be accomplished that were spoken to thee by the Lord."
- Luke, 1:45

"Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women"
- Luke, 1:28

"And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"
- Luke, 1:42, 43

"When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he saith to his mother: [u]Woman, behold thy son.[/u] After that, he saith to the disciple: [u]Behold thy mother.[/u] [u]And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own.[/u]"
- John, 19:26

Edited August 31, 2006 by brendan1104

[Fides_et_Ratio]

We can't love Mary more than HE does.
[img]http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/images/heart.jpg[/img]