curtins Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 Ok maybe you guys can help me with this or if I'm right or wrong or what but: If Christ established his Church (Catholic Church) and gaurenteed it would not be overcome by the gates of hell but the church evolved into all these things that the protestants consider Christ never intended (magisterium, papal infalibility, true presesnce in the Eucharist) then that would mean Christ screwed up. It would mean he didn't know what he was doing. It would also mean that God in the Holy Spirit is not guiding the Church as Christ said he would. That would mean that God screwed up assuming Christ was who he said (God). If Christ screwed up like that then he can't be God cause God can't screw up or he's less than perfect. It would also mean Christ lied because it would mean the gates of hell did indeed over come the Church (thus the need to create new protestant churches) and that would mean Christ lied when he said he was the Truth. All of this means he can't be God. And so the protestants are wasting their time unless they join the Catholic Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diamond Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 I'm a Protestant. Jesus' didn't set up a hierarchy as His church. I believe that his Church is made up of those who follow Him and love God, whether Protestant, Catholic or Orthodox. It is THAT Church, the body of Christ in which we all serve a purpose, that can never be overcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 (edited) [quote]Jesus' didn't set up a hierarchy as His church. I believe that his Church is made up of those who follow Him and love God, whether Protestant, Catholic or Orthodox. It is THAT Church, the body of Christ in which we all serve a purpose, that can never be overcome.[/quote] We are all part of one Holy Catholic and Apostolic chuch. No matter what we are. However, Peter established his see at Rome before he was crucified upsidedown on a cross by nero. The hirearchy of the Church doesnt influence my worhsip. I know and love my Holy Father, I know he is Christ's vicar on earth. Im not going to make it much more complicated than that. [quote]then that would mean Christ screwed up[/quote] And Christ didnt Screw up... All of history was and is in the hands of God. Whether it seems weird or not, everthing has a purpose. Edited August 11, 2006 by Convert4888 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtins Posted August 11, 2006 Author Share Posted August 11, 2006 [quote] And Christ didnt Screw up... biglol.gif All of history was and is in the hands of God. Whether it seems weird or not, everthing has a purpose. [/quote] I'm not saying he screwed up lol. I'm saying that if you don't think that the Catholic Church is Christ's true church then by logic you are implicitly saying he screwed up [quote name='Diamond' post='1041200' date='Aug 10 2006, 07:56 PM'] I'm a Protestant. Jesus' didn't set up a hierarchy as His church. I believe that his Church is made up of those who follow Him and love God, whether Protestant, Catholic or Orthodox. It is THAT Church, the body of Christ in which we all serve a purpose, that can never be overcome. [/quote] Actually Jesus did set up a hierarchy in the Church. He specifically singled out Peter as the ROCK on which his Church would be built. He specifically chose his 12 Apostles and gave them AUTHORITY. And the Holy Spirit guided the formation of the hierarchy in the Church as we now see it today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 Ahh okay...I see Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertwoman Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 Well, I've met some Protestants that belive that the Catholic Church stamped out the real christians and brought forth Catholicism. How would you deal with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gal. 5:22,23 Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 [quote name='desertwoman' post='1041404' date='Aug 11 2006, 08:18 AM'] Well, I've met some Protestants that belive that the Catholic Church stamped out the real christians and brought forth Catholicism. How would you deal with that. [/quote] I think you would need to find out when they believe the Catholics did such a thing. Then, you can prove to them through the writings of the Early Church Fathers that this simply is not true. I used to be one of [i]those[/i] Protestants of which you speak. Then I read the ECF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budge Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 Curtin you got the WRONG church. Look up what Ekklesia means please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JeffCR07 Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 [quote name='Diamond' post='1041200' date='Aug 10 2006, 05:56 PM'] I'm a Protestant. Jesus' didn't set up a hierarchy as His church. I believe that his Church is made up of those who follow Him and love God, whether Protestant, Catholic or Orthodox. It is THAT Church, the body of Christ in which we all serve a purpose, that can never be overcome. [/quote] There are two problems with this argument. First and foremost, it makes an unnecessary distinction between a "visible" and an "invisible" Church. Christ gave the keys of the kingdom to Peter, and he gave all the Apostles the power to bind and loose. Moreover, those apostles laid hands on the first deacons and the visible church grew organically out of Christ's actions. To argue that the "Church" is only an invisible collection of all people who follow and love God [i]over and above[/i] the visible, historical Church grounded in Christ and the Apostles is extremely problematic. The invisible communion of all believers is not something over and above the visible Church, which is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. Secondly, once this mistake has been made, and Christ's visible Church has been seperated from the amalgamous "communion of those who love Christ" you fall into the problem of interpretation. If there is no visible, concrete Church through which the Holy Spirit acts and teaches, then it follows that the assertion that the Church is the communion of all who love Christ can only be an assertion of a personal interpretation of Scripture. But personal interpretation of Scripture is not infallible in itself, and that means that there is [i]in principle[/i] no way to actually be certain what the "Church" is. Your Brother In Christ, Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JeffCR07 Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 (edited) sorry, double post Edited August 11, 2006 by JeffCR07 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 (edited) [quote name='Diamond' post='1041200' date='Aug 10 2006, 06:56 PM'] I'm a Protestant. Jesus' didn't set up a hierarchy as His church. I believe that his Church is made up of those who follow Him and love God, whether Protestant, Catholic or Orthodox. It is THAT Church, the body of Christ in which we all serve a purpose, that can never be overcome. [/quote] If that's the case, then the Pope has authority over Protestants as well and they should listen to him, otherwise they are guilty of not subjecting themselves to authority (Romans 13:1-2). Edited August 11, 2006 by Norseman82 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justified Saint Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 (edited) curtins, Your points are good since they illustrate the ahistorical conception of Christianity that is held by many a Protestant (especially of the evangelical/fundamentalist type) and which really strikes at the heart of the Catholic-Protestant divide. I can't say this amounts to the Protestant, in ignorance, denying the divinity of Christ since they don't believe that Christ "screwed up" but only that Christ didn't will the historic church. Thus of course they firmly believe in the divinity of Christ, but they really don't understand that divinity very well. Protestants of this type are so reactionary that they have a lot of difficultly coming up with a robost defense of Christ's divinity and doctrines of the faith. [quote name='Norseman82' post='1041445' date='Aug 11 2006, 08:58 AM'] If that's the case, then the Pope has authority over Protestants as well. [/quote] This is actually a position that some Protestants are willing to concede -- odd as that sounds. Edited August 11, 2006 by Justified Saint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budge Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 [quote]If that's the case, then the Pope has authority over Protestants as well and they should listen to him, otherwise they are guilty of not subjecting themselves to authority (Romans 13:1-2).[/quote] One thing that ecumenical Prots are duped about is all those teachings about the Popes holding temporal power over the world and over souls are still in place. Jesus is the head of my church, not a fallible man claiming the title Vicar of Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 No, error in theology does not amount to "denying the divinty of Christ". Protestants and Catholics worship the same God, although we do not agree about everything pertaining to the Christian tradition. Our dispute is not in the revealer, but in what the revealer has revealed. The Second Vatican Council expounded on the Church's relationship to non-Catholic Christians: [quote]The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God. They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ's disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth. --"Lumen Gentium"[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eutychus Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 [quote] If Christ established his Church (Catholic Church) and gaurenteed i[b]t would not be overcome[u] by the gates of hell [/u] [/quote][/b] Bumper sticker theology. First of all, GATES are not offensive, now are they? You might want to research what that phrase actually teaches. If you get such simple concepts as what a GATE does, why should I listen to the rest of your trite, sloganeering? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now