Musings on Idolatry and the {real} 2nd Commandment

[Eutychus]

[quote]So, if Jesus really hated images of his face, why did he give us at least one directly?

[b][u]Remember Veronica?[/u][/b] [/quote]

No, do you?

Or as ex Catholics like to do, we turn to the bible and see if Veronica can be found there...shall we?

[quote]1Ti 4:7

[b][u]But refuse profane and old wives' fables,[/u][/b] and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.

2Pe 1:16

[b[u]]For we have not followed cunningly devised fables,[/u][/b] when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.[/quote]

By the way...WHICH of the many competing TRUE VIEL's are we referring to?

Oh, yeah, forgot...one more thing. The iggerunts that believe such things....might want to know that there was NEVER A VERONICA, yeah, no such chick. It is a igguruntestesistes bastardization of VERA ICONIA, or "true image"

But hey, never let real history get in the way of a Catholic fable and fairy tale, right? Maybe a flying house that moves from here to there, or saints that walk into town carrying their severed head are where old Veronica hid that veil...you never know, now do you?

[quote]Origin of story

The story of Veronica and her veil does not occur in the Bible, though the apocryphal "Acts of Pilate" mentions a woman called Veronica who was cured by touching the hem of Jesus' cloak. The name "Veronica" is a colloquial portmanteau of the Latin word Vera, meaning truth, and Greek Icon meaning "image"; the Veil of Veronica was therefore largely regarded in medieval times as "the true image", and the truthful representation of Jesus, preceding the Shroud of Turin.

The white, diaphanous cloth that was venerated as the Veil of Veronica or Sudarium of Veronica during the middle ages reportedly measured about 6½ inches by 9½ inches and displayed the features of a bearded man with long hair and open eyes.[/quote]

[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/09/Francesco_Mochi.jpg/180px-Francesco_Mochi.jpg[/img]

[Eutychus]

[quote]So, if Jesus really hated images of his face, why did he give us at least one directly?

[b][u]Remember Veronica?[/u][/b] [/quote]

No, do you?

Or as ex Catholics like to do, we turn to the bible and see if Veronica can be found there...shall we?

[quote]1Ti 4:7

[b][u]But refuse profane and old wives' fables,[/u][/b] and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.

2Pe 1:16

[b[u]]For we have not followed cunningly devised fables,[/u][/b] when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.[/quote]

By the way...WHICH of the many competing TRUE VIEL's are we referring to?

Oh, yeah, forgot...one more thing. The iggerunts that believe such things....might want to know that there was NEVER A VERONICA, yeah, no such chick. It is a igguruntestesistes bastardization of VERA ICONIA, or "true image"

But hey, never let real history get in the way of a Catholic fable and fairy tale, right? Maybe a flying house that moves from here to there, or saints that walk into town carrying their severed head are where old Veronica hid that veil...you never know, now do you?

[quote]Origin of story

The story of Veronica and her veil does not occur in the Bible, though the apocryphal "Acts of Pilate" mentions a woman called Veronica who was cured by touching the hem of Jesus' cloak. The name "Veronica" is a colloquial portmanteau of the Latin word Vera, meaning truth, and Greek Icon meaning "image"; the Veil of Veronica was therefore largely regarded in medieval times as "the true image", and the truthful representation of Jesus, preceding the Shroud of Turin.

The white, diaphanous cloth that was venerated as the Veil of Veronica or Sudarium of Veronica during the middle ages reportedly measured about 6½ inches by 9½ inches and displayed the features of a bearded man with long hair and open eyes.[/quote]

[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/09/Francesco_Mochi.jpg/180px-Francesco_Mochi.jpg[/img]

[desertwoman]

What about the iconoclasts? It seems as if they wouldn't be around if the early Church didn't have statues.

It seems that the Iconoclasts started to gain ground when the influx of Islam began, since any drawing is considered to be idolatrous.

Strick Islamic law even forbids fiction writing, hence little Islamic writings and stories since it is against Allah's laws.

I'm a little rusty on the subject, but it was very intresting to learn this in class years ago. I have to dig for my old notes in WC.

[Mitchell_b55]

Most contemporay likeness' of Jesus Christ are considered descendants of images created with reference to the Holy Shroud, I believe they are called the Paul Vignon Markings.

If you don't believ in the valdity of the Shroud, go to [url="http://www.shoudstrory.com"]Shroud Story[/url]

Also look at this, [url="http://www.shroudofturin4journalists.com/pantocrator.htm"]Pantocrator[/url]

Edited August 14, 2006 by petrus_scholasticus

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1043701' date='Aug 14 2006, 03:15 PM']
Oh, yeah, forgot...one more thing. The iggerunts that believe such things....might want to know that there was NEVER A VERONICA, yeah, no such chick. It is a igguruntestesistes bastardization of VERA ICONIA, or "true image"

But hey, never let real history get in the way of a Catholic fable and fairy tale, right? Maybe a flying house that moves from here to there, or saints that walk into town carrying their severed head are where old Veronica hid that veil...you never know, now do you?
[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/09/Francesco_Mochi.jpg/180px-Francesco_Mochi.jpg[/img]
[/quote]
The Church has never taught that we are required to believe in the story of Veronica. The story of Veronica is a pious tradition, certainly not a doctrinal position binding on Catholics. That's not to say there was not a real Veronica somewhere - there are Veronicas recorded in the Roman Martyrology. God bless!

[ReinnieR]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1043691' date='Aug 14 2006, 02:03 PM']
I believe in apostacy starting INSIDE the life of John. So did John, by the way.
[/quote]
i meant total apostasy.

to believe in total apostasy is to call Jesus Christ a liar.

Jesus said that the gates of hell will not prevail against his church (Matthew 16:18

so you're saying Jesus lied to us about that??

i like 1 John

it talks about the false messiahs the false prophets, the antichrist.

in 1 John 2:18-19

we see this

18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that the antichrist was coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. Thus we know this is the last hour.

19 They went out from us, but they were not really of our number; if they had been, they would have remained with us. Their desertion shows that none of them was of our number.

St. Matthew and St. Mark talks about the same antichrist, St. Paul's lawless one.

Matthew 24:24



24 False messiahs and false prophets will arise, and they will perform signs and wonders so great as to deceive, if that were possible, even the elect.



Mark 13:22



22 False messiahs and false prophets will arise and will perform signs and wonders in order to mislead, if that were possible, the elect.



And St. Paul’s lawless one



3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For unless the apostasy comes first and the lawless one is revealed, the one doomed to perdition,


so who is this antichrist that they are talking about??

remember in 1 John 2:19 it says that they went out from us.

Acts 20:30

30 And from your own group, men will come forward perverting the truth to draw the disciples away after them.


and from our own group they will come forward perverting the truth.

let's see

hmm

Martin Luther was Catholic

hmm

King Henry VIII

should i go on??

i think you know where i'm going.



i think i'll stick with the group that's apostolic. that have kept the truth safeguarding it. The ONE HOLY CATHOLIC [b]APOSTOLIC[/b] CHURCH.

I wouldn't hold my own private interpretation.

2 Peter 3:16

speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.

because people's interpretations can be wrong. i'll stick with the 2000 year tradition.

i will listen to the Apostles and their succcessors

Luke 10:16

"He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me"

i will listen to the church that is guided by the holy spirit

John 14:16-18, 26

16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you always,
17 the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you.
18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

26 The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name--he will teach you everything and remind you of all that (I) told you.


how can i go wrong with that?

The church which is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Timothy 3:15)


Mathew 18:17

If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.

Edited August 14, 2006 by ReinnieR

[Socrates]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1043701' date='Aug 14 2006, 01:15 PM']
No, do you?

Or as ex Catholics like to do, we turn to the bible and see if Veronica can be found there...shall we?
[/quote]
Perhaps we should turn to the Bible and see if this prohibition of all images for Christians can be found there...shall we?

Not in my Bible, nor is there anything about the Church apostasizing.

Protestant fairy tales . . .

[Eutychus]

[quote] The Church has never taught that we are required to believe in the story of Veronica. [u]The story of Veronica is a pious tradition, certainly not a doctrinal position binding on Catholics.[/u] That's not to say there was not a real Veronica somewhere - there are Veronicas recorded in the Roman Martyrology.[/quote]

Pious TRADITION?

Is that Cathlolicspeak for OLD WIVES TALE? Or SUPERSTITION handed down?

[quote]2 Timothy 4:3 (KJV)

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; [i]but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall [b]turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.[/b][/i][/quote]



[quote]Perhaps we should turn to the Bible and see if this prohibition of all images for Christians can be found there...shall we? [/quote]

Oh, yeah, forgot.

The NAB has Exodus 20 and the Ten Commandments excised, specifically #2?



[quote]i think i'll stick with the group that's apostolic. that have kept the truth safeguarding it. The ONE HOLY CATHOLIC APOSTOLIC CHURCH. [/quote]

Oh, sorry, I guess you are right. The Greek Orthodox, having the best claim to historically being tied to the chuches as written to by Jesus and John in Revelation, just might be.

Thank you for reminding me of the Orhtodox claim to apostolic succession.

[Anomaly]

Eut,
Wake up dude. I've been reading your posts. It seems you've just decided to join the denomination, 'Anything that's not Catholic'. Sadly, you've abandoned all intellectual honesty and any adherence to moral principles based on 'Christianity' or 'goodness'.

Even worse, you've become boring and pointless with silly diatribes against 'Catholics'. I challenge you to post 5 positive points about your 'christian' denomination that aren't rooted in 'anti-catholicsm'.

[Eutychus]

[quote] i meant total apostasy.

to believe in total apostasy is to call Jesus Christ a liar.[/quote]

Yeah, sure, Jesus taught that a HUGE STRONG CHRUCH would be there upon His return....right?

[quote]Lu 18:8

I tell you that he will avenge them speedily.[b] [u]Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth[/u]?[/b][/quote]

It rather looks like, Jesus was saying, will there even BE FAITH, upon the earth when He returns?

[quote]Even worse, you've become boring and pointless with silly diatribes against 'Catholics'. I challenge you to post 5 positive points about your 'christian' denomination that aren't rooted in 'anti-catholicsm'. [/quote]

Well, unlike some.....I don't consider "my denomination" to be anything more or less than a gathering of believers for worship and study.

And in the five years, I can count on one hand, the times that the Catholic Church has even been mentioned, and that was in passing, mostly in reference to the movie, the PASSION OF THE CHRIST.

Personal faith saves you, not your building or denomination. Nicodemus was given the answer, being in the Sanhedrin he was up to his eyeballs in "demonination"....yet did Jesus tell him to stay in "his church" or even leave "his church?"

No. Neither.

What Jesus told him, in a nutshell, is that you needed to be "born from above/again" in SPIRIT to be saved.

Edited August 15, 2006 by Eutychus

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1043964' date='Aug 15 2006, 04:55 AM']
Yeah, sure, Jesus taught that a HUGE STRONG CHRUCH would be there upon His return....right?
It rather looks like, Jesus was saying, will there even BE FAITH, upon the earth when He returns?
Well, unlike some.....I don't consider "my denomination" to be anything more or less than a gathering of believers for worship and study.

And in the five years, I can count on one hand, the times that the Catholic Church has even been mentioned, and that was in passing, mostly in reference to the movie, the PASSION OF THE CHRIST.

Personal faith saves you, not your building or denomination. Nicodemus was given the answer, being in the Sanhedrin he was up to his eyeballs in "demonination"....yet did Jesus tell him to stay in "his church" or even leave "his church?"

No. Neither.

What Jesus told him, in a nutshell, is that you needed to be "born from above/again" in SPIRIT to be saved.
[/quote]Oh. So you are anti-denomination?

[CoffeeCatholic]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1043701' date='Aug 14 2006, 03:15 PM']
No, do you?

Or as ex Catholics like to do, we turn to the bible and see if Veronica can be found there...shall we?
By the way...WHICH of the many competing TRUE VIEL's are we referring to?

Oh, yeah, forgot...one more thing. The iggerunts that believe such things....might want to know that there was NEVER A VERONICA, yeah, no such chick. It is a igguruntestesistes bastardization of VERA ICONIA, or "true image"

But hey, never let real history get in the way of a Catholic fable and fairy tale, right? Maybe a flying house that moves from here to there, or saints that walk into town carrying their severed head are where old Veronica hid that veil...you never know, now do you?
[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/09/Francesco_Mochi.jpg/180px-Francesco_Mochi.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

Yes, Veronica is in the Gospels during the passion sequences, she's just not given a name. The name we have may or may not be her real name, as there's speculation of it's origins meaning "true image" but none the less, she was there, she existed, and she has an image of Christ's face.

Also, what about Our Lady of Chestahova (sp?) painted in year 80 by none other than the gospel writer Luke. If that doesn't speak for itself, i don't know what will.

Finally, do you have any pictures in your house of your family, your mom, your kids (if you have them), or even any pictures at all? Why do you have these pictures? Do you think that your mother is inside of that picture which you have hanging on the wall of her? No! You have those pictures to remind you of your mother, to look at and say "my, i remember that time" or "I really love you mom". Same with sacred icons. They are simply "pictures" of holy people whom we wish to remember so that we can be reminded of something they did or who they were in order to live out more holy lives like them.

If you believe there's nothing wrong with having pictures of your family, or painting or art which you like and remind you of something (like those inspiration posters) then there is no reason for you to dislike Holy Art. That's like saying "I like to have pictures of random people who don't mean anything to me, but i'd NEVER have a picture of my own mother, that's idol worship"

God Bless! and Happy Feast of the Assumption!

[Norseman82]

[quote name='OLAM Dad' post='1042508' date='Aug 13 2006, 05:53 AM']
Akalyte pretty much put this one to bed.

The prohibition against graven images is in Exodus 20 and yet we find God commanding Moses to do this in Exodus 25.
Did God command Moses to violate His own commandments by commanding him to make golden cherubim?
[/quote]

And not only that, what about the seraph serpent that, by looking at it, would cure the Israelites from snake bites?

[Eutychus]

[quote] Yes, Veronica is in the Gospels during the passion sequences, she's just not given a name[/quote]

Sorry, you have Grimms Fairy Tales for Catholics confused with the bible.

Oh, I forgot, anything that ANYONE "believed" is now equal to the bible, all you need is a few confused Collyridians and Nicolatians from anytime within the first 500 years and you have AUTHENTIC Traditions, right? If you can find a doctored up, forgery, or gnostic tale work it in and baptise it as authentic.

OK, show me up, produce the BIBLE VERSE where Veronica { did ANYONE read the history where the name itself was NOT A PERSON, but derived from the IMAGE? }

I will stand corrected when the IMAGE ON THE CLOTH is produced in the NT Passion sequences, as you put things.

Tic toc....

[quote]And not only that, what about the seraph serpent that, by looking at it, would cure the Israelites from snake bites? [/quote]

Have you got a CLUE what the "serpent" was?

It was GOD HImself, forshadowing the coming of Jesus, where He would be hoisted on a cross, where BRASS { the Hebrew image for sin } was made SIN FOR US, and ACCURSED { by hanging on a tree }

Sheesh.

And what did the geniuses DO with that brass serpent? Like Catholics today, they made it into a relic, set a shrine up for it, burned incense to it, and used it for moxie power.

And God had to order a later king, to go to the shrine the { Catholic/like } Jews had, and DESTROY the brass image/serpent, to eradicate it,a and stop them from acting like modern Catholics.

Sheesh, AGAIN...

[quote]2 Kings 18:1 (KJV) Now it came to pass in the third year of Hoshea son of Elah king of Israel, [that] Hezekiah the son of Ahaz king of Judah began to reign.

2 Twenty and five years old was he when he began to reign; and he reigned twenty and nine years in Jerusalem. His mother's name also [was] Abi, the daughter of Zachariah.

3 And he did [that which was] right in the sight of the LORD, according to all that David his father did.
[color="#993300"]
[b]4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and [u]brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.[/u][/b][/color][/quote]

[cmotherofpirl]

2K 18:4He removed the high places, and broke the pillars, and cut down the Asherah. And he broke into pieces the bronze serpent that Moses made, for until those days the people of Israel had burned incense to it, it was called Nehushtan."

Yep, the new king tore down the areas where pagan worship and sex orgies were occurring, and destroyed the bronze serpent which had become a rival to God instead of a method of curing injury.
There is a huge difference between worshipping a piece of metal, and using a statue to remind us of our family in heaven. ..but you know that already. :

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1043985' date='Aug 15 2006, 08:29 AM']
Oh, I forgot, anything that ANYONE "believed" is now equal to the bible, all you need is a few confused Collyridians and Nicolatians from anytime within the first 500 years and you have AUTHENTIC Traditions, right? If you can find a doctored up, forgery, or gnostic tale work it in and baptise it as authentic.

[/quote]

Of course you seem to have forgotten the part about the church coming before the "bible"[church being pillar and foundation, not a book] and the fact the church chose what books actually appeared in the NT. The bible came from the church not the other way around, so therefore the book cannot disagree with the church that put it together.

[Guest JeffCR07]

Eutychus, could you please reply to my most previous post.

[stbernardLT]

This guy dodges more questions than Bill Clinton.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1043985' date='Aug 15 2006, 07:29 AM']
OK, show me up, produce the BIBLE VERSE where Veronica { did ANYONE read the history where the name itself was NOT A PERSON, but derived from the IMAGE? }

I will stand corrected when the IMAGE ON THE CLOTH is produced in the NT Passion sequences, as you put things.
[/quote]

OK, show US up. YOU show US the bible verse where it says we need to show you the bible verse.

[CoffeeCatholic]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1043961' date='Aug 15 2006, 06:43 AM']

Thank you for reminding me of the Orhtodox claim to apostolic succession.
[/quote]

the Orthodox have more holy Icons than we do.

[quote name='CoffeeCatholic' post='1043975' date='Aug 15 2006, 07:47 AM']
Yes, Veronica is in the Gospels during the passion sequences, she's just not given a name.
[/quote]

I recant this. It had been a long time since I had read the gospel passion sequences.

Anyway, my first point still stands. there have been holy Icons for as long as there has been God.

What do you say about Our Lady of Chestahova? I would like to hear your comments on that. If Luke was wrong, then could that mean that the gospel of Luke was not divinely inspired (aka, the Bible's wrong)? How could someone so close to God make such a grieveous error?