Musings on Idolatry and the {real} 2nd Commandment

[ReinnieR]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1043964' date='Aug 15 2006, 05:55 AM']
Yeah, sure, Jesus taught that a HUGE STRONG CHRUCH would be there upon His return....right?
It rather looks like, Jesus was saying, will there even BE FAITH, upon the earth when He returns?
Well, unlike some.....I don't consider "my denomination" to be anything more or less than a gathering of believers for worship and study.

And in the five years, I can count on one hand, the times that the Catholic Church has even been mentioned, and that was in passing, mostly in reference to the movie, the PASSION OF THE CHRIST.

Personal faith saves you, not your building or denomination. Nicodemus was given the answer, being in the Sanhedrin he was up to his eyeballs in "demonination"....yet did Jesus tell him to stay in "his church" or even leave "his church?"

No. Neither.

What Jesus told him, in a nutshell, is that you needed to be "born from above/again" in SPIRIT to be saved.
[/quote]
yeah because i was talking about a building.

and of coarse i was talking about a denomination.

i believe i was talking about the church that Jesus Christ established.

church = ecclesia (that's greek) it means a gathering

and of course you're gonna think i'm still talking about a building

when i say gathering i don't mean a gathering of bricks or cinder blocks

i mean a gathering of the called ones. that's what the greek word ecclesia mean.

by church i meant the body of christ.

i didn't say anything about a building

you might not understand what the Body of Christ is

here let me help you

[quote]
1 Corinthians 12:12-27



12 As a body is one though it has many parts, and all the parts of the body, though many, are one body, so also Christ.

13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free persons, and we were all given to drink of one Spirit.

14 Now the body is not a single part, but many.

15 If a foot should say, "Because I am not a hand I do not belong to the body," it does not for this reason belong any less to the body.

16 Or if an ear should say, "Because I am not an eye I do not belong to the body," it does not for this reason belong any less to the body.

17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole body were hearing, where would the sense of smell be?

18 But as it is, God placed the parts, each one of them, in the body as he intended.

19 If they were all one part, where would the body be?

20 But as it is, there are many parts, yet one body.

21 The eye cannot say to the hand, "I do not need you," nor again the head to the feet, "I do not need you."

22 Indeed, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are all the more necessary,

23 and those parts of the body that we consider less honorable we surround with greater honor, and our less presentable parts are treated with greater propriety,

24 whereas our more presentable parts do not need this. But God has so constructed the body as to give greater honor to a part that is without it,

25 so that there may be no division in the body, but that the parts may have the same concern for one another.

26 If (one) part suffers, all the parts suffer with it; if one part is honored, all the parts share its joy.

27 Now you are Christ's body, and individually parts of it. [/quote]

i'm not talking about a building

and i don't think i've made myself clear.

you mentioned the word denomination

i said CHURCH that JESUS CHRIST ESTABLISHED

he didn't establish a denomination.

he founded a teaching church.

the Catholic Church is NOT a denomination.


and plese show me in the bible where [i]sola fide[/i] can grant you salvation

that means faith alone

let me put it to you this way

Can you ( that means you Eutychus) show me (that means you'll have to look it up and paste the text here) in the bible (that's a collection of books that the Catholic Church declared inspired by God) where it says that faith alone (that's what i meant by sola fide) can grant you salvation (in your terms that means being saved)?

the bible that i'm reading tells me that faith alone can not.

[quote]

James 2:14-26

14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."
24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.[/quote]

Edited August 16, 2006 by ReinnieR

[Socrates]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1043961' date='Aug 15 2006, 04:43 AM']
The NAB has Exodus 20 and the Ten Commandments excised, specifically #2?
[/quote]

Exodus 20:3-5:[quote]Thou shalt not have strange gods before me. Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. [b]Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them[/b]: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me:[/quote]
This is clearly a condemnation of pagan idol worship; it forbids the making and worshiping of idols.

You are trying to falsely isolate 20:4, "Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth," to make this into a prohibition of making any kind of image.

However, as we have repeatedly pointed out (and you have repeatedly ignored), just a few chapters later, God commanded gold cherubs to be made for the Ark of the Covenant.
[quote]Thou shalt make also two cherubims of beaten gold, on the two sides of the oracle. Let one cherub be on the one side, and the other on the other. Let them cover both sides of the propitiatory, spreading their wings, and covering the oracle, and let them look one towards the other, their faces being turned towards the propitiatory wherewith the ark is to be covered.[/quote]Exodus 25:18-20.

And Numbers 21:8:[quote]And the Lord said to him: Make a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: whosoever being struck shall look on it, shall live.[/quote]
Obviously, God is not against the making of any images, as He commanded images to be made. (Or are those passages excised from your Bible?)

This is the typical protestant tactic of pulling a verse from Scripture out of context, misinterpreting it, then blatantly ignoring those things in Scripture which clearly contradict this "interpretation."

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1043985' date='Aug 15 2006, 06:29 AM']
Have you got a CLUE what the "serpent" was?

It was GOD HImself, forshadowing the coming of Jesus, where He would be hoisted on a cross, where BRASS { the Hebrew image for sin } was made SIN FOR US, and ACCURSED { by hanging on a tree }
[/quote]
Hmm. Much like a crucifix, perhaps?

[quote]And what did the geniuses DO with that brass serpent? Like Catholics today, they made it into a relic, set a shrine up for it, burned incense to it, and used it for moxie power.[/quote]They worshipped it as an idol. And in my thirty years as a Catholic, I have never worshipped statues or images as idols, nor have I seen any other Catholics do this (though my Church does have statues and stained glass).

Sheesh.

[quote]And God had to order a later king, to go to the shrine the { Catholic/like } Jews had, and DESTROY the brass image/serpent, to eradicate it,a and stop them from acting like modern Catholics.

Sheesh, AGAIN...[/quote]
Or rather act like modern protestants, refusing to listen to God-ordained authority, and misusing what was given to them by God for their own purposes.

[Eutychus]

Soc man...

If you love your painted and plaster little goddettes and house gods...who am I to stop you, really?

Let's see here....the Jews, to whom the ten commandments were given, had 2000 years of struggle with this one, over and over they too had their "theologians" who taught that little asheroth poles and statues of the queen of heaven were OK...and each and every time God punished them for that.

And finally, after being beaten by God enough, they finally concluded that the REAL meaning is use NO IMAGES of God for religion, pagan, OUR GOD, Jesus or any in heaven.

Ever wonder WHY the entire NT has NO description of the physical Jesus? They were Jews, they knew that Jesus WAS GOD and they then made NO statues, no paintings, not even describing him phyically {pre resurrection } in the entire book.

So, if you NEED your little dollies to help you pray, fine with me, after all, I AM NOT the one that will condemn you to the fourth and fifth generations for doing so.

Have fun!

[Socrates]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1044915' date='Aug 16 2006, 06:17 PM']
Soc man...

If you love your painted and plaster little goddettes and house gods...who am I to stop you, really?

Let's see here....the Jews, to whom the ten commandments were given, had 2000 years of struggle with this one, over and over they too had their "theologians" who taught that little asheroth poles and statues of the queen of heaven were OK...and each and every time God punished them for that.

And finally, after being beaten by God enough, they finally concluded that the REAL meaning is use NO IMAGES of God for religion, pagan, OUR GOD, Jesus or any in heaven.

Ever wonder WHY the entire NT has NO description of the physical Jesus? They were Jews, they knew that Jesus WAS GOD and they then made NO statues, no paintings, not even describing him phyically {pre resurrection } in the entire book.

So, if you NEED your little dollies to help you pray, fine with me, after all, I AM NOT the one that will condemn you to the fourth and fifth generations for doing so.

Have fun!
[/quote]
Nice little rant there . . . not sure what it has to do with anything, but that's okay. Your rants are always amusing.

I still don't see a response to the points about God [b]commanding[/b] the making of the gold cherubim and the bronze serpent.

Is your God who forbids all images the same God who commanded the making of those images?

And you still haven't shown where in the Bible it prohibits making images of Jesus. Sounds like vain, unbiblical doctine to me.

As for the Gospels not giving physical descriptions of Jesus, can you find detailed physical descriptions of [b]any[/b] people in the New Testament?
But I suppose you'll interpret this to mean that any physical descriptions ("word images") of people constitutes idolatry? (Would make police work a little hard, come to think of it - can't describe the suspect!)
Or perhaps the Evangelists had more important things to say than describe everybody's hair, eye-color, height, body-build, etc.

Actually we do have this description of Christ during the Transfiguration. [quote]And he was transfigured before them. And his face did shine as the sun: and his garments became white as snow. [/quote]Matthew 17:2
(That's a bit more physical description than Matthew typically gives of people.)

Guess you'd better get rid of that image of the sleeping brain you use, lest you be condemned! (Does anyone else find Euthychus' "sleeping brain" avatar very appropriate? )

[Eutychus]

[quote] I still don't see a response to the points about God commanding the making of the gold cherubim and the bronze serpent.[/quote]

Exegesis isn't your strong point, is it?

OK, I will dumb this one down for you, all the way.

God makes rules for US, not Himself. D'oh, yeah, wow, shocking, isn't it?

Perhaps an illustration would be in order, you do what an analogy is don't you?

OK, in the TEN COMMANDMENTS is a command, "DO NOT MURDER"...right? That is there, clear as day, and everyone agrees with that one, as far as I know, that command is still listed in the top ten by all believers, of whatever stripe.

Now, fast forward only 40 YEARS from God's giving of that GENERAL COMMAND. You are Joshua, standing on the east bank of the River Jordan, reviewing your "marching orders from God" speaking to the assembled troops. And it is given "when we cross the River Jordan, God has COMMANDED us to *** MURDER *** every man, woman, and child from the listed groups we encounter in the promised land."

Yeah, note the term is not FIGHT AND DEFEAT, but SLAUGHTER THEM ALL, infants included.

So, here we have the conrundrum. God told them, MURDER was one of the ten commandments, and forbidden. Yet only 40 years later, God HIMSELF tells them to murder all the Jebusites, Caananites, Hisvites, and the other "ites" they encounter, leaving not one alive, even hours old newborns, ALL are to be put to the sword.

Now, we apply "Roman Catholic Logic" to this problem, using the 2nd commandment rule that where God allows or commands something, that means it overrides the commandments to us.

So, by extension, since God commanded Murder of his enemies, we are to do the same, right? Therefore, since we can find an EXCEPTION to God's general rule { make a cherubim for the Ark } that negates the entire command. And therefore, MURDER is allowed.

Cannot you see, that God MADE THE RULES, and when HE WANTS TO, for HIS PURPOSES, HE can break them. But that does not give US the right to do so using that as our excuse.

Sheesh. This is pattycake exegesis for a properly trained evangelical or pentecostal with a years worth of bible study under his belt. Why does this one so test the skills of the Roman Catholic wannabe apologists?

[cmotherofpirl]

testing???

considering the rudeness of your respones, very few people are even bothering to read your threads, must less make the effort to respond...

[Eutychus]

[quote] considering the rudeness of your respones, very few people are even bothering to read your threads, must less make the effort to respond...[/quote]

So sorry. I forgot that I'm to come and bow before the mighty here?

I was under the mistaken impression, that a forum named DEBATE/INTERRELIGIOUS would by that very term invite those that have strong disagreements with those here.

Afer all, I'm NOT posting in the Vocation Station section, now am I?

As for "rudeness" .... have you read the 100+ ANTATHEMA's of Trent? All of which, were reconfirmed by Vatican II and still in effect? Basically everything an evangelical believes triggers an anathema, and at the time of the issuance { before the Catholic Church in it's magical revamping of lingospeak every few decades } the word Anathema meant "GO TO HELL YOU HERETIC"

There are some { historically aware } that still believe that is quite rude too, but then WE don't consider ourselves in the OTC, just in communion with Jesus Christ, not a city on seven hills cloathed in scarlet and purple holding a golden cup in her hand.

So, what do I know anyway? After all, I was poorly Catechised, and didn't know the "real" Catholic Church, and Martin Luther was an antisemite, and King James was gay....right?

[i]{ Seriously, the bumpersticker theology of the roman catholic continues to bring me chuckles. Frankly, there are about 15 verses in the entire bible that are used by the Catholic Church .... and even those are isolated, and changed to support the unsupportable. }

{{{ Now another thing, remember, that as a bible believing EX Catholic [ by definition ] we believe that the Roman Catholic church is the church described so accurately and completely in Revelation 17 and 18, so pray tell, just why would an EX-Catholic be nice and polite about discussing maters that [ by definition ] they believe will lead millions to hell instead of heaven? }}}[/i]

[cmotherofpirl]

"Ex" catholics all sound alike.

You do go on and on about your lack of education, and your hatred don't you.
Strong disagreements and good manners are not antithetical.

We have had amazing and productive discussions here with wiccans, atheists, satanists and fundamentalists for years now.
But people simply ignor your posts because of your condescending attitude and repitition of hatred and disdain for the Church. We love God and the Church and are not likely to listen to any attacks with any seriousness.

You really can't expect much attention when you approach with the red flag of hate waving about you,
most of us just walk away shaking the dust off our feet, and adding you to a prayer list somewhere.

Start from a basis of what you have in common with the Church and generate a little more light than heat please.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1045250' date='Aug 17 2006, 04:32 AM']
Exegesis isn't your strong point, is it?

OK, I will dumb this one down for you, all the way.

God makes rules for US, not Himself. D'oh, yeah, wow, shocking, isn't it?

Perhaps an illustration would be in order, you do what an analogy is don't you?

OK, in the TEN COMMANDMENTS is a command, "DO NOT MURDER"...right? That is there, clear as day, and everyone agrees with that one, as far as I know, that command is still listed in the top ten by all believers, of whatever stripe.

Now, fast forward only 40 YEARS from God's giving of that GENERAL COMMAND. You are Joshua, standing on the east bank of the River Jordan, reviewing your "marching orders from God" speaking to the assembled troops. And it is given "when we cross the River Jordan, God has COMMANDED us to *** MURDER *** every man, woman, and child from the listed groups we encounter in the promised land."

Yeah, note the term is not FIGHT AND DEFEAT, but SLAUGHTER THEM ALL, infants included.

So, here we have the conrundrum. God told them, MURDER was one of the ten commandments, and forbidden. Yet only 40 years later, God HIMSELF tells them to murder all the Jebusites, Caananites, Hisvites, and the other "ites" they encounter, leaving not one alive, even hours old newborns, ALL are to be put to the sword.

Now, we apply "Roman Catholic Logic" to this problem, using the 2nd commandment rule that where God allows or commands something, that means it overrides the commandments to us.

So, by extension, since God commanded Murder of his enemies, we are to do the same, right? Therefore, since we can find an EXCEPTION to God's general rule { make a cherubim for the Ark } that negates the entire command. And therefore, MURDER is allowed.

Cannot you see, that God MADE THE RULES, and when HE WANTS TO, for HIS PURPOSES, HE can break them. But that does not give US the right to do so using that as our excuse.

Sheesh. This is pattycake exegesis for a properly trained evangelical or pentecostal with a years worth of bible study under his belt. Why does this one so test the skills of the Roman Catholic wannabe apologists?
[/quote]
Your "exegesis" is simply imposing your own opinions upon the words of the Bible. God is the author of life and death, and can thus order whomever He wishes killed. God willed these people killed for their sins.
The laws of God are not arbitrary, however.
The Second Commandment forbids the [b]making and worshipping of idols[/b]; this is quite clear from the context.
If making images of any kind is intrinsically evil, why would God command it? If making graven images was something evil and contrary to God's will, why would He command it. I mean, He could have just as easily ordered the ark made without the adornment of the gold angels, and could have used another means to cure those afflicted by the serpents without an image of a serpent! Your argument here is absurd and farcical.

I'll ask you a question; do you have any photos of any family members - wife, kids, mother, fathers - or have any pictures of anyone? If so, wouldn't that make you a hypocrite? (Or does "graven image" only mean things carved out of stone or metal - the Lord being okay with photographs?)