Catholics and Salvation

[Jesuspaidtheprice]

Catholic friends,

What does it mean to be "saved" to you? How is a person "saved" in the Catholic faith? Is there any way apart from the grace of God that I can do works that to get me into heaven? Do any Catholics currently adhere to the heresy of (semi)pelagianism? Why do you think that many non-Catholics believe Catholicism is a false religion, and what is your reaction to that?

Just trying to stir some positive dialogue without making assumptions. Perhaps we can learn from each other instead of just point fingers.

Edited August 18, 2006 by Jesuspaidtheprice

[Eutychus]

[quote] How is a person "saved" in the Catholic faith? [/quote]

This should be fun. { They never really reveal ALL that you must do, or if you ever can KNOW you have fulfilled the "requirements" [that change constantly] and I guess you have to read about 10 thick books to get some of the requirements...}

You can't get a straight answer to ANYTHING from Roman Catholics, it is the religion of the obscure, the oblique, and shaded nuance.

[desertwoman]

This seems like a great idea. Do you want the Prostant version of salvation first, or should the Catholic Church should define what is meant by salvation?

[MC Just]

Catholics believe Christ is the only way to heaven. Christ is our Savior, and no one else. Why do yall act like the bible is foreign to us? Dont you read history? Catholic bishops put the old and new testaments together and labeled it "the bible"and gave it a table of contents and numbered every verse and page. Yeah. Yet we are treated like enemies of "the word of God". The church was built and put together before the bible though..So they didnt pick and choose verses to build the church on like protestants do, literally everyday. The bible came from Tradition. Anyhow, we work out our salvation in fear and trembling. Ya'll need to stop condemning us because we dont adhere to your protestant personal interpretations. We adhere to the Apostolic interpretations already present in "the word of God". Marinate on this:

"Have you been saved?"--a question which conceives of salvation as a past event. While Scripture does sometimes speak of salvation as a past event (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5, 8, 2 Tim. 1:9, Titus 3:5), or as a present process (Phil. 2:12, 1 Pet. 1:9), it most often speaks of it as a future event:

"Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 7:21).

"One came up to him, saying, `Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?' And Jesus replied 'If you would enter life, keep the commandments'" (Matt. 19:16-17).

"He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him" (John 14:21).

"But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by perseverance in good works seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury" (Rom. 2:2-8).

"You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love" (Gal. 5:4-6).

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God--not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:8-10).

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Phil. 2:12-13).

"What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, `Go in peace, be warmed and filled,' without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. But some one will say, `You have faith and I have works.' Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, `Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness'; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" (Jas. 2:14-24)

[Era Might]

"Saved" means Jesus died on the cross for every single person in the world (see 1John 2:1-2). He saved us all 2,000 years ago, and merited the grace to make all men holy, and truly worthy of his Kingdom.

In Catholic theology, we would speak of applying this saving grace throughout time. It is first given by God through baptism, where he washes us free from all sin and gives us a clear conscience (see 1Peter 3:21).

In this "rebirth", we are "infused" with the Holy Spirit, and become partakers in the divine nature (see 2Peter 1:4). The Christian life is a process by which we grow deeper and deeper in communion with God, to become more and more conformed to this Divine nature in which we have come to partake. This process is called "theosis" or "sanctification".

Sin wounds our communion with God, although in different degrees (see 1John 5:16-17). Because we are in a covenant of grace, and not works, God distinguishes the gravity of sin. Whereas in the Old Covenant, because it was based on works, and not grace, there could technically be no distinction in sin. All sin was an offense against God, and once you failed in a particular good work, you broke the covenant and were subject to God's judgement. Now, because God has revealed himself through the mercy of his Son, he distinguishes between "mortal" and "venial" sins.

"Venial" sins are sins which wound our communion with God, but do not rupture it. It's like a small tear in a rope. The rope doesn't break, but the more tears that build up, the easier it will be to break.

"Mortal" sins are sins which, because of their gravity, rupture our communion with God; the rope breaks. We can no longer be partakers in the divine nature, because we have grievously turned our will against God, and he cannot live within us.

So, to summarize how we view salvation in the Catholic Church, it's not a "moment" or an "event". Salvation is a process that begins in baptism, and ends in Heaven. Salvation is the process by which we are made holy with the blood of Christ, and enter into his Kingdom. How are we saved? By submitting our will to the will of God. At any point on this journey we can cut our rope and go on our way. But God is always there to give us a new rope, and get us right back on the journey.

St. Paul compares the process of salvation to the journey through the desert by the Israelites on their way to the promised land. If we obey God, we will reach the promised land. If not, then, as God said to the Israelites, "you shall never enter into my rest".

[quote]Therefore, [b]while the promise of entering his rest remains, let us fear lest any of you be judged to have failed to reach it[/b].

For good news came to us just as to them; but the message which they heard did not benefit them, because it did not meet with faith in the hearers.

For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, "As I swore in my wrath, `They shall never enter my rest,'" although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.

For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way, "And God rested on the seventh day from all his works."

And again in this place he said, "They shall never enter my rest."

Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and [b]those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience[/b], again he sets a certain day, "Today," saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted, "Today, when you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts."

For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not speak later of another day. So then, there remains a sabbath rest for the people of God; for whoever enters God's rest also ceases from his labors as God did from his.

[b]Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, that no one fall by the same sort of disobedience[/b].

For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

And before him no creature is hidden, but all are open and laid bare to the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.

For we have not a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.

[b]Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need[/b].

--Hebrews 4[/quote]
St. Paul also compares the process of salvation to a marathon:

[quote]Do you not know that in a race all the runners compete, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it.

Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.

Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air; but I pommel my body and subdue it, [b]lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified[/b].

--1Corinthians 9
[/quote]
Hope that helps.

Edited August 18, 2006 by Era Might

[chris]

[quote]You can't get a straight answer to ANYTHING from Roman Catholics, it is the religion of the obscure, the oblique, and shaded nuance.[/quote]

And you dont listen? We have asked you to stop (hundreds of times) and you just dont get the picture. And if this is so distubing to you why are you here? Answer that?


[quote]What does it mean to be "saved" to you? [/quote]


We are saved by the blood of Christ. His sacrifice for the world pulled us from sin to salvation.

To be saved to is be changed from a life of rebellion against God to a life of service as a Christian, a disciple of Christ.

The same way that Saul was saved by Christ on the road to Damascus and had is name changed to Paul.

[quote]Is there any way apart from the grace of God that I can do works that to get me into heaven?[/quote]

Eph 2:8-10

Also, you faith with out works is dead.

[quote]Do any Catholics currently adhere to the heresy of (semi)pelagianism?[/quote]

I dont know...

pelagianism:

The theological doctrine propounded by Pelagius, a British monk, and condemned as heresy by the Roman Catholic Church in A.D. 416. It denied original sin and affirmed the ability of humans to be righteous by the exercise of free will.

[quote]Why do you think that many non-Catholics believe Catholicism is a false religion, and what is your reaction to that?
[/quote]

We don't...They do and I dont understand why they do.

[Budge]

Heres the problem in a nutshell, Catholicism teachs that salvation is available only through the Catholic church.

CCC 816...The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of salvation of the means of salvation can be obtained"

{before anyone jumps up and down, this means they arent interfaith, remember they are making themselves the source of salvation, even for all those 'good' Muslims and Hindus get in via the Catholic Church}

When a church is a center of salvation instead of Jesus Christ, the rules can be bent all over.

When checking God's Word on this subject, two critical facts leap out:

1. The Bible never remotely indicates that one must go through a church to obtain salvation.

2. Literally hundreds of scriptures proclaim that salvation is a free gift from God, readily available to anyone but only through Jesus Christ.[b]

"For the wages of sin is death; But the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" Romans 6:23[/b]

Jesus never requires an use of a church or its rituals and sacraments for salvation...

Redemption is in Christ, not a church

[b]"Being Justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus--Romans 3:24[/b]

God's Word declares that salvation is obtained via faith in Jesus Christ, while the Cathechism maintains that salvation is only available through the Catholic Church.

Which one are you going to believe?

Im going with Gods Word.

[homeschoolmom]

Follow Christ until the end when God says, "Well done, good and faithful servant."

[Eutychus]

[quote] "Saved" means Jesus died on the cross for every single person in the world (see 1John 2:1-2). He saved us all 2,000 years ago, and merited the grace to make all men holy, and truly worthy of his Kingdom.[/quote]

BAD theology, truly rotten.

I could just post ALL the passages that show that NO ONE is saved unless they profess a believing faith in Jesus, and repent.

I hardly think that the ENTIRE WORLD will accept that, and do that, now do they?

[Resurrexi]

[quote]"Saved" means Jesus died on the cross for every single person in the world (see 1John 2:1-2). He saved us all 2,000 years ago, and merited the grace to make all men holy, and truly worthy of his Kingdom.
[/quote]

No, "Saved" means that you are a baptised person (or catechuman waiting to be baptised) who confesses all the Dogmata of the Catholic Church, acts in obedience to the Magesterium, and is in a state of grace (i. e. a state of not being in mortal sin).

[quote]Whereas in the Old Covenant, because it was based on works, and not grace, there could technically be no distinction in sin. All sin was an offense against God, and once you failed in a particular good work, you broke the covenant and were subject to God's judgement. Now, because God has revealed himself through the mercy of his Son, he distinguishes between "mortal" and "venial" sins.[/quote]

WRONG! There has always been a distinction between mortal and venial sin, even before the Old Testament was ended/fufilled. All sin was not equally as grevious because God gave Moses graver punishments for gravers sins.

[Budge]

[quote]

No, "Saved" means that you are a baptised person (or catechuman waiting to be baptised) who confesses all the Dogmata of the Catholic Church, acts in obedience to the Magesterium, and is in a state of grace (i. e. a state of not being in mortal sin).[/quote]

The Bible doesnt say that at all.

[b]
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth."[/b]

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1046222' date='Aug 18 2006, 03:25 PM']
BAD theology, truly rotten.

I could just post ALL the passages that show that NO ONE is saved unless they profess a believing faith in Jesus, and repent.

I hardly think that the ENTIRE WORLD will accept that, and do that, now do they?
[/quote]

And that is [b]EXACTLY[/b] why we need the professionals in the Catholic Church to interpret scripture and not every Joey Bagadonuts we run into.

As is said in 2 Peter 3:16, some scriptures are hard to understand, and the ignorant and unstable distort them.

[Resurrexi]

[quote]
The Bible doesnt say that at all.


"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth."

[/quote]

It's more important to read the Catechsim than the Bible, as the Catechism says:

[quote] Q. Is the reading of the Bible necessary to all Christians?
A. The reading of the Bible is not necessary to all Christians since they are instructed by the Church; however its reading is very useful and recommended to all. [/quote]

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1046240' date='Aug 18 2006, 03:46 PM']
And that is [b]EXACTLY[/b] why we need the professionals in the Catholic Church to interpret scripture and not every Joey Bagadonuts we run into.

As is said in 2 Peter 3:16, some scriptures are hard to understand, and the ignorant and unstable distort them.
[/quote]
I think I went to high school with Joey Bagadonuts.

[Budge]

[quote]
And that is EXACTLY why we need the professionals in the Catholic Church to interpret scripture and not every Joey Bagadonuts we run into.[/quote]

The "professionals" arent getting it right.

The interreligious dialogue and fact they teach Allah [of Islam] is the same as Jehovah, tells me they are failing miserably in any interpretation of scripture.

They follow their own traditions rather then Gods Word.

Some questions for you...


Why does the Catholic church want you to believe that the Pope and other Catholic leaders are the only ones capable of interpreting scripture and infallible in mattersof doctrine? isnt it to bring members into further bondage and obedience to the Catholic church?
[size=5]
Where do fallible men obtain the authority to declare other men infallible?[/size]

scripture over and over claims that only God is infallible.

Edited August 18, 2006 by Budge