Catholics and Salvation

[Budge]

He obviously DOES NOT know what that picture is.

Does this give you a clue?

[img]http://www.crystalinks.com/mecca-kaaba.jpg[/img]

[quote]The official starting point of the walk around the Kaaba, that forms the core of the holy pilgrimage, is called the hajj. During the Tawaf pilgrims kiss or touch the black stone as they circumambulate the Ka'ba.[/quote]

JS you definitely need to learn more about all these religions you think are so wonderful and full of truths.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1046690' date='Aug 20 2006, 11:56 AM']
What is this?

[img]http://www.al-islam.org/gallery/photos/hajraswd.gif[/img]

When does it date to? What building is it attached to? Why does it have significance?
[/quote]

Looks like someone's missing hubcap after an accident?

Edited August 20, 2006 by Norseman82

[Budge]

Looks like someone else doesnt know...

Come on, go RESEARCH something guys!

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Budge' post='1046571' date='Aug 20 2006, 07:17 AM']
Your church in Nostra Atate refers to Allah [of Islam] as God too.

Back to thread...

[img]http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/salvationtract.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

Hmm..ever read the first part of Romans 6? Or Colossians 2:12?Or 1 Peter 3:20-21? Or are those also excised from the Cliff's Notes version of the Bible?

[Justified Saint]

Lol Budge, you are too funny. I know perfectly well what it is a picture of and I probably know A LOT more about Islam than you do. But the question is always the same "umm..ok...what exactly is your point again?"

You guys (you and Euty) are so filled with self-importance and I daresay that it is comical watching you reel from the aftershock of your collapsing arguments.

[Aloysius]

Budge and Eutychus, what does this pilgrimage site have to do with the smashed moon god idol? The smashed moon god idol proves that mohammad did not believe in the moon god.

Mohammad was a heretic. He studied christianity and judaism and came to the conclusion that the God which had worked in those religions was the one true God. Then he claimed many other things about this God, things which are distortions and/or deceptions and are thus evil. But they are distortions and deceptions regarding the One True God. Mohammad identified that God as the one true God.

"So, I pray to Shiva, and the prayer goes to YHWH? I pray to Ba'al, and the prayer is rerouted to YHWH?"

NO, you are totally missing the point. If you identify The God of the Old and New Testament in your intention when you pray to God, you are praying towards the One True God. You may have placed a veil over Him and thus not understand who He is and thus not actually unite with Him in prayer, but He knows if you are sending Him a prayer.

If you identify Shiva the destroyer then you are not sending a prayer to God. But if you identified the God of Israel and of Christ in your intention but you used the name "shiva", so long as you were not identifying it with the hindu god shiva it would not make a difference.

[homeschoolmom]

Al, did you mean to say, the Hindu god 'shiva'?

[Jesuspaidtheprice]

[quote name='Budge' post='1046571' date='Aug 20 2006, 08:17 AM']
Your church in Nostra Atate refers to Allah [of Islam] as God too.

Back to thread...

[img]http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/salvationtract.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

Interesting that the author of that picture believes you can be saved without repenting of your sins. Catholics, do you believed you are "saved" through the means listed in that picture?

[Jesuspaidtheprice]

[quote name='Budge' post='1046571' date='Aug 20 2006, 08:17 AM']
Your church in Nostra Atate refers to Allah [of Islam] as God too.

Back to thread...

[img]http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/salvationtract.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

Interesting that the author of that picture believes you can be saved without repenting of your sins. Catholics, do you believed you are "saved" through the means listed in that picture?

[thessalonian]

The whole picture and the words around it are straw men. We believe we are saved by Jesus Christ. By his grace. By growing in knowledge and grace. By truth about the matters above. For he tells us "you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free". We are freed by the above truths and so in some sense they do save us because they are the teachings of Christ that set us free. But it is the grace of Christ that saves us. This setting the teachings and grace apart from eachother is very stange. A life of grace saves men. He is viewing the above legalisticly.

[curtins]

[quote]Thats your problem in a nutshell.

Mary cant get anyone to heaven.

[/quote]

Thats taken from the Thread "How many masses does it take to get out of purgatory"

[quote]Heres the problem in a nutshell, Catholicism teachs that salvation is available only through the Catholic church. [/quote]

Thats from page one of this thread

Both by Budge.

So Budge, which one is our 'problem in a nutshell'? Mary or the fact that salvation only comes through the Church?


And if we worship the same God as Muslims do, but they've distorted who God really is, then I would say we worship the same God as Protestants like Budge do but they too have distorted God much in the same way the Muslims have.

NOW back to the origional question:

[quote]Catholic friends,

What does it mean to be "saved" to you? How is a person "saved" in the Catholic faith? Is there any way apart from the grace of God that I can do works that to get me into heaven? Do any Catholics currently adhere to the heresy of (semi)pelagianism? Why do you think that many non-Catholics believe Catholicism is a false religion, and what is your reaction to that?

Just trying to stir some positive dialogue without making assumptions. Perhaps we can learn from each other instead of just point fingers.[/quote]

Protestant freind:
Well Jesus Christ saved all of humanity by dying for our sins and rising- thus opening the gates of heaven. He also established the Catholic Church and continues to guide it as the principal SURE means of salvation through which anyone can be saved. In terms of eternal salvation- that is the state of being fully with God when we die (aka heaven). One obtains eternal salvation by recieving the sacraments, in which God gives us sanctifying grace (the Grace we need in our souls to enter heaven) namely baptism and then the Eucharist and Confession regularly. The church teaches that one must die in a state of Grace , that is having no mortal sins on them, to reach Heaven. However the Church doesnt say that if someone has a mortal sin on them and dies that he or she goes streight to hell because we don't know at the moment of death if they repent, and how God's mercy works etc etc. To get into a state of Grace one goes to Confession to confess their sins (especially mortal sins- ie those of grave matter, commited willingly, knowing its a mortal sin) and receives complete absolution of their sins. Receiving the Eucharist strengthens and increases the sanctifying Grace in that person's soul.

The church also teaches that one can be saved through Baptism of blood or desire. That is if they die for the Christ as a martyr or if they explicitly or implicity desire baptism and salvation in Jesus Christ. As for you- since you know about Jesus and beleive he is God etc- the argument that your a native out in some jungle and never heard of Jesus before doesnt really work for you.

I've never heard of that heresy that you mention- so I don't know. Any Catholic who adheres to any heresy isnt really a Catholic- they're a heretic. (sp?).

They think its a false religion because they are ignorant to the truth, whether by their own fault or otherwise. My reaction is Jesus is merciful and loves you infinatly, but he is also Just. The sure means of Salvation are contained in the Church- why gamble with eternity anywhere else?

I very very much appreciate your possitive attitude and attempt at creating good dialoug to learn from each other etc. It is a very good thing. We have some protestants here who are insisting on being uncharitable so that is very good of you. Thanks and God bless

[Aloysius]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1046823' date='Aug 20 2006, 04:42 PM']
Al, did you mean to say, the Hindu god 'shiva'?
[/quote]
haha good call. good thing a mod's editability doesn't have a time limit.

for those of you who missed it I said "the muslim god 'shiva' "

the quick edit button is cool

Anyway, as regards the Catholic view of salvation: Pelagianism and semi-Pelagianism are heresies. Often what happens, however, is that Catholics find it difficult to word things. They get too caught up in trying to show why the Protestant view of salvation is wrong that they word things as if they were Pelagians, but in my experience most Catholics are clearly not Pelagians if you get to the root of what they believe outside of an argument with a protestant.

We believe that you are saved by the free gift of grace which operates through the supernatural gift of faith. Both of these are free gifts from God which we do not merit at all. But they are free gifts in the same way a puppy is a free gift. If you do not feed the puppy, the puppy will die. If you do not feed your faith, your faith will die. And if your faith dies, there is nothing within you for grace to work through.

Faith is like the runway and grace is like the plane. By sin you clog up the runway with clutter so if grace were to land there it would crash, you would not be in a state which is able to accept it. If you do not do good works, the runway of faith will fall into disrepair and again the plane of grace will not be able to land. If you do not take care of these free gifts God gives you, then you will not reep the benefits.

When one is baptized and christened (made a Christian, did not mean anything age specific), one is saved. Throughout one's whole life they are being saved continuously. They will only be saved eternally if they persevere until they enter eternity.

For those who do not know of Pelagianism and semi-Pelagianism: Pelagianism is a heresy which says that we earn our own salvation; and semi-Pelagianism says that we work with God to earn our salvation. Both are false. God Alone saves us, we do not merit it. Our works are meritorious solely in the way they sustain the free gifts God gives us.

For you see:
Pelagius lived at Kardanoel
And taught a doctrine there
How, whether you went to heaven or to hell
It was your own affair.
It had nothing to do with the Church, my boy,
But was your own affair.

No, he didn't believe
In Adam and Eve
He put no faith therein!
His doubts began
With the Fall of Man
And he laughed at Original Sin.
With my row-ti-tow
Ti-oodly-ow
He laughed at original sin.

Then came the bishop of old Auxerre
Germanus was his name
He tore great handfuls out of his hair
And he called Pelagius shame.
And with his stout Episcopal staff
So thoroughly whacked and banged
The heretics all, both short and tall --
They rather had been hanged.

Oh he whacked them hard, and he banged them long
Upon each and all occasions
Till they bellowed in chorus, loud and strong
Their orthodox persuasions.
With my row-ti-tow
Ti-oodly-ow
Their orthodox persuasions.

Now the faith is old and the Devil bold
Exceedingly bold indeed.
And the masses of doubt that are floating about
Would smother a mortal creed.
But we that sit in a sturdy youth
And still can drink strong ale
Let us put it away to infallible truth
That always shall prevail.

And thank the Lord
For the temporal sword
And howling heretics too.
And all good things
Our Christendom brings
But especially barley brew!
With my row-ti-tow
Ti-oodly-ow
Especially barley brew!

[curtins]

So its like God alone gives us salvation but our actions here on earth are us cooperating with him to give us salvation or not cooperating with him?

I'm just trying to understand cause I've never heard of this before.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Jesuspaidtheprice' post='1047183' date='Aug 21 2006, 09:51 AM']
Interesting that the author of that picture believes you can be saved without repenting of your sins. Catholics, do you believed you are "saved" through the means listed in that picture?
[/quote]
Many of these things are means of cultivating the spiritual life. The rosary for example is a devotional practice, not a means of salvation. As a Catholic that picture just comes off as extremely ignorant and silly. If I were to make a similar picture for protestants I might say that you are not saved by reading the Bible, or hearing sermons, or praying. But certainly protestants do not believe that they are saved by such things, nor do Catholics. This would be a pretty decent analogy.

I think because belief in an absolute assurance of salvation is not part of Catholicism, there is less of a tendency to separate being a part of Christ's fold (what some might call 'being saved') and the practices which go along with that. The devotions and sacramental life of the Church help us to grow as Christians in love for God and neighbor, as well as to overcome sinful tendencies. It is not believed that we will "earn" salvation by doing things. Ideally the works of love that are proper to the Christian life are done in response to the love that God has shown to us by sending His own Son to die for our salvation.

The decrees of the Council of Trent do a good job of explaining much of the theology behind the Catholic understanding.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='curtins' post='1047593' date='Aug 21 2006, 06:27 PM']
So its like God alone gives us salvation but our actions here on earth are us cooperating with him to give us salvation or not cooperating with him?

I'm just trying to understand cause I've never heard of this before.
[/quote]
that's the type of wording that gets people thinking we're semi-Pelagians, the word "cooperating". It's an alright word, it can be accurate I suppose, especially in clarifying against the totally-depraved crowd... but it makes it seem like it's part our doing and part God's doing. it is God who saves us, we cannot save ourselves by any means at all. we can only take care of our faith and the state of our souls so that we are able to receive God's grace.

our works do not save us. our works sustain our faith. grace saves us through our faith. if we do not sustain our faith, grace cannot save us because we are unable to accept it.

if you call taking care of a key component in our salvation "cooperation", so be it, it is understandable. but you understand that our side of this cooperation is not "saving" ourselves, it's sustaining our faith so that God's grace can save us.

the connotations of the word "cooperation" lead me to steer clear of it, it sounds too much like the very definition of semi-pelagian to me.