A Challenge

[Didacus]

JP the Great - pray for us!

[Aloysius]

Notice that I offered an alternative if you didn't believe there were any notably famous historical individuals who were Christians in any one century: name a group of them.

Padre Pio did not worship angels, and the Bible certainly does not say not to talk to or honor angels.

You don't need to name famous individuals, just the communities will be fine. (i.e. the church at such and such a city, the christian community in such and such a town)

[Budge]

[quote]Padre Pio did not worship angels, and the Bible certainly does not say not to talk to or honor angels.
[/quote]

Looks to me like Pio had demons to do his bidding, just like any high magic warlock...



[quote]Angels by His Side
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[b]Padre Pio frequently sent his angel to someone who needed help. [/b]For example, Father Alessio Parente was assigned to assist the fragile monk from the chapel to his monastic cell every day. But Father Parente had a habit of oversleeping. Often he wouldn't hear his alarm clock or, half awake, he would switch it off. "Every time I overslept," he says, [b]"I heard a voice in my sleep saying, 'Alessio, Alessio, come down!' and a knocking at my door. Realizing I was late, I would jump out of bed and run out into the corridor to see who called me, but there was nobody there. I would race down to the church and there I invariably found Padre Pio at the end of Mass giving the last blessing.[/b]

"One day I was sitting by Padre Pio's side, feeling ashamed at my lack of punctuality. I was trying to explain to him that I never seemed to hear the alarm, but he interrupted me. 'Yes, I understand you,' he said. [b]'But do you think I will continue to send my guardian angel every day to wake you? You'd better go and buy yourself a new clock.'[/b]

"It was only then that I realized who was knocking at my door and calling me in my sleep."
[b]
Padre Pio believed that people could send their angels to others to help or intercede. He encouraged his vast network of friends to send their angels to him if they could not come themselves. "Your angel can take a message from you to me," he would say, "and I will assist you as much as I can." [/b]On one occasion Cecil, an English friend of the Padre, was hurt in a car crash. A friend went to the post office to send a telegram to Padre Pio, requesting prayers for the accident victim. When the friend presented the telegram at the desk, the man gave him back a telegram from Padre Pio assuring him of his prayers for Cecil.[/quote]

[url="http://www.beliefnet.com/story/62/story_6264_2.html"]LINK: PADRE PIO AND HIS SPIRIT GUIDES AND HELPERS[/url]

[God Conquers]

Soooo, being famous makes you not a Christian...


Sorry Jesus, Luther, Calvin, Wesley, Graham... you all are not Christian because you are famous.

[Anomaly]

Billy Graham.
Nobody hates Billy.
On the cover of time.
He's going to hell.

[url="http://www.time.com/time/covers/0,16641,1101931115,00.html?internalid=AC"]http://www.time.com/time/covers/0,16641,11...l?internalid=AC[/url]

[curtins]

I guess Jesus can't be good cause he was and is famous. I'm pretty sure most people have some idea of who Jesus is even if they don't beleive He is God.

[Socrates]

Well, well. This is very interesting.
The Catholics have easily provided names of Christians from each century after Christ. (And literally hundreds more could be provided from each century - pick up any book of saints!)

Yet those who do not believe Catholics to be Christian have failed to meet this challenge.
They have, in fact, failed to name a single "Christian."
Where were all the Christians prior the Protestant Revolt?
Where were they hiding?

Surely, if this non-Catholic Christian church is the Church founded by Christ, we would at least be able to have some names of some of these Christians from the early centuries of the Church. Wouldn't we have some kind of records of them or their writings, or at least some oral tradition concerning them?

Instead, the anti-Catholics on this board have provided us with absolutely nothing! Rather than answering the question, they have avoided it altogether, and instead just given the same old senseless rants against the Church they have already given in thread after thread.
Are we seeing a pattern here?

[quote name='Budge' post='1048181' date='Aug 22 2006, 03:26 PM']
Looks to me like Pio had demons to do his bidding, just like any high magic warlock...



[url="http://www.beliefnet.com/story/62/story_6264_2.html"]LINK: PADRE PIO AND HIS SPIRIT GUIDES AND HELPERS[/url]
[/quote]
So angels are now unbiblical?
Plenty of good (non-demonic) angels are mentioned in the Bible. You have proven nothing at all here.

Edited August 23, 2006 by Socrates

[Didacus]

Really, I can ask my guardien angel to help others?

That's awesome - thanks Budge! That actually makes sense to me - if you can pray for a saint's intervention, that logically should include your guardien angel who is also a saint.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Budge' post='1047870' date='Aug 22 2006, 08:45 AM']
One thing Ive noticed about Catholic "saints" is they are always

1. Celebrities.

2. Made a lot of money for the Vatican, this is one reason the founder of Opus Dei just got raised to sainthood.

3. Usually powerful and wealthy founders of monasteries, orders, convents--. Even if living under poverty oath, have incredible fame.[/quote]
This statement shows that you are extremely ignorant, to say the very least, of most canonized Catholic saints.

1) "Celebrity" is a largely meaningless term, but many were not particularly popular in their lifetimes, an most did not seek out, but rather tried to avoid worldly fame and prestige, often living lives as hermits as or in cloistered monasteries, away from the sight of the world. Many were largely unknown in their lifetimes, becoming famous only after death. (St. Therese of Liseux is but one example.)

2) This is outright nonsense. I challenge you to name one saint and give a record of how much money he "made for the Vatican." Most saints lived lives of total personal poverty, and many gave everything extra they obtained to the poor. (Think of St. Francis, as an example.) Many saints were reformers and opponents of clerical corruption and luxury.
St. Catherine of Siena, who you claim to quote, criticized the Pope himself for living in France, rather than Rome. (And she certainly earned the Pope no money!)

3) Again, nonsense. While a few founded orders and convents (and most of these lived in personal poverty themselves), the vast majority did not. (Think St. Martin de Porres, who lived his life as a lowly gatekeeper at a monastery.)

Read any book of saints and you will see many examples of extraordinary humility, poverty, and self-denial, rather than worldly power, wealth and prestige.

That post about saints being canonized for being big money-makers for Rome is nothing but pure baseless propaganda. A quick reading of any book on the lives of the saints will show this.

[quote]Most true saints are unrecognized by this world. In fact Jesus Himself warned that the world would hate those who are truly His. I believe most of the saints of those centuries DIED, UNKNOWN, and in many cases PERSECUTED by Rome itself.[/quote]
Could you then name at least one of them?
(Doesn't have to be a famous person, but surely there must be [i]some[/i] record of some of these people! These "true saints" must be [b]unknown[/b] indeed!)

Edited August 23, 2006 by Socrates

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1048988' date='Aug 23 2006, 03:05 PM']
This statement shows that you are extremely ignorant, to say the very least, of most canonized Catholic saints.

1) "Celebrity" is a largely meaningless term, but many were not particularly popular in their lifetimes, an most did not seek out, but rather tried to avoid worldly fame and prestige, often living lives as hermits as or in cloistered monasteries, away from the sight of the world. Many were largely unknown in their lifetimes, becoming famous only after death. (St. Therese of Liseux is but one example.)

2) This is outright nonsense. I challenge you to name one saint and give a record of how much money he "made for the Vatican." Most saints lived lives of total personal poverty, and many gave everything extra they obtained to the poor. (Think of St. Francis, as an example.) Many saints were reformers and opponents of clerical corruption and luxury.
St. Catherine of Siena, who you claim to quote, criticized the Pope himself for living in France, rather than Rome. (And she certainly earned the Pope no money!)

3) Again, nonsense. While a few founded orders and convents (and most of these lived in personal poverty themselves), the vast majority did not. (Think St. Martin de Porres, who lived his life as a lowly gatekeeper at a monastery.)

Read any book of saints and you will see many examples of extraordinary humility, poverty, and self-denial, rather than worldly power, wealth and prestige.

That post about saints being canonized for being big money-makers for Rome is nothing but pure baseless propaganda. A quick reading of any book on the lives of the saints will show this.
Could you then name at least one of them?
(Doesn't have to be a famous person, but surely there must be [i]some[/i] record of some of these people! These "true saints" must be [b]unknown[/b] indeed!)
[/quote]
Well said Socrates.

Budge asserted the following:
[quote]Most true saints are unrecognized by this world. In fact Jesus Himself warned that the world would hate those who are truly His. I believe most of the saints of those centuries DIED, UNKNOWN, and in many cases PERSECUTED by Rome itself.[/quote]
I must say I actually agree with Budge on this point (for the most part). While there are countless canonized saints in the Church, there are no doubt countless more who died unknown and are never canonized. But this is normal because God selects certain saints to set as an example to those in his Church. No doubt the apostles themselves were an example to the early Christian communities as St. Paul himself would seem to indicate when he says: "Imitatores mei estote fratres et observate eos qui ita ambulant sicut habetis formam nos", which is rendered in the King James Bible as: "Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an example".

The saints are those who have lived the Christian life in an exemplary manner. It is a mistake to assume that extraordinary phenomenon (stigmata, visions, miracles) is what makes a person a saint; these things are secondary. I suppose most saints are not know for extraordinary or miraculous phenomenon. It is the fact that they had heroic virtue, and a radical love for God that makes them worthy examples. The saints are those who excelled in doing the will of God. They are living examples of the gospel being lived, they are witnesses of Christ and this is why they ought to be "celebrities" to use your term. And I agree with Socrates that you would do well to truly come to know about the lives of the saints, and make some attempt to actually understand them, before presuming to accuse them of being money-making celebrities of the Church. The money hungry celebrity evangelist is more a protestant concept anyway. I've heard of people becoming protestant evangelists who in fact had no faith, they simply enjoyed the persona and saw it as a good way to get rich.

[Aloysius]

Actually, there aren't really "countless" canonized saints in the church. they can easily be counted. there are countless non-popular non-canonized saints in heaven, however.

That said: the existence of anyone with a Christian belief system in any century would be recorded in history. Even if you think it's in some record of a Catholic persecution of them... where are these bible believing Christians? Were there any communities of them? If so, just name their locations.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1049223' date='Aug 23 2006, 07:20 PM']
Actually, there aren't really "countless" canonized saints in the church. they can easily be counted. there are countless non-popular non-canonized saints in heaven, however.

That said: the existence of anyone with a Christian belief system in any century would be recorded in history. Even if you think it's in some record of a Catholic persecution of them... where are these bible believing Christians? Were there any communities of them? If so, just name their locations.
[/quote]
excuse my hyperbole you nerd. hehe

why don't you count them for us: [url="http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/patron02.htm"]http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/patron02.htm[/url]

I'd guess that there are between five and six thousand if you include blesseds and venerables.

[stbernardLT]

I love this thread. Great idea Al. They can't answer the question.

[jswranch]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1048054' date='Aug 22 2006, 01:56 PM']
I take it that these insane diversions, ...are an indication of the fact that Al's challenge cannot be met. Regardless of the volume of inflammatory nonsense you seem able to conjure up, you lose.
[/quote]
Bravo!

Budge and Eutychus,
I really cannot take you seriously until you atleast attempt to answer Al's challenge with names, and not name calling.