South Dakota Execution

[adsdrummer]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1051086' date='Aug 26 2006, 04:45 PM']
read that quote more carefully; because that's the exact quote I'm citing here.

If however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are [b]more[/b] in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity with the dignity of the human person.

It is a greater good to show mercy, but because Traditional Catholic Teaching allows for the state to have recourse to the death penalty because of the Catholic principal of forfeiture, it is still a good if one guilty of a grave offence is executed. No matter what: if they are guilty then they receive the punishment justly. The state may be wrong to do it because it should have showed mercy, but if it goes ahead anyway the criminal is still receiving what he deserves according to Catholic teaching.

All I'm saying is that this is not murder and it is contrary to Catholic teaching to call it murder. The CCC says authorities have a moral obligation to limit themselves to non-lethal means when those non-lethal means are sufficient. If they do not, the sin is in not doing the greater good; it is not the sin of murder because that person has forfeited his right to life and it is only through the greater good of the mercy of the state that he would be permitted to still live.

The sin of the state would be in doing the lesser good when the greater good was acheivable. But there is still a good being done according to Catholic Teaching--justice.

I am not saying you shouldn't be against the death penalty in this case; I am merely exhorting you to be against the death penalty the same way Church Teaching is against the death penalty: that it is good in theory and everyone guilty of a grave crime can justly receive it but the state should restrain itself for the greater good and choose mercy over justice in as many cases as it would be sufficient to do so.
[/quote]

yeah..that does make sense.

[chris]

[quote]Not one of God's children deserve's death. Espcially when they have plead guilty to the sin.[/quote]

23 [b]For the wages of sin is death,[/b] but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Remember, Even after we are confessing our sins on earth we will be diciplined in the afterlife through purgatory.

Dicipline was institued by God for the punishment of those who dont follow his law.

What do you think God would do if one of his people sinned...Oh remember his whole people sinned in the wilderness by idol worship and they ended up murdering each other and God left them to die in the wilderness and their children inherited Cannan...

Edited August 27, 2006 by Convert4888

[catholicinsd]

I think you must remember something about this case. Elijah had a very difficult childhood. His parents abused him, and would let others abuse him too, so they could get drugs. The alleged murder happened when Mr. Page only 18, just out of that hell of a childhood. Truly, we own Elijah Page, who is also a victim of several violent crimes, life.

[ruso]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1050830' date='Aug 26 2006, 07:38 AM']
I guess God was sinning when He caused Gemorrah to be destroyed with fire and brimstone.

I guess God was sinning when He caused Lot's wife to be made into a pillar of salt.

And of course, God was sinning when He caused the Egyptian army to be drowned in the Red Sea.

Let's not bring up all the First Born.

And what about the inhabitants of Jericho...
What a burden it must be, to have a higher moral standard than God Himself.
[/quote]
Your God, is not my God.
Brother mine.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='catholicinsd' post='1051499' date='Aug 27 2006, 03:23 AM']
I think you must remember something about this case. Elijah had a very difficult childhood. His parents abused him, and would let others abuse him too, so they could get drugs. The alleged murder happened when Mr. Page only 18, just out of that hell of a childhood. Truly, we own Elijah Page, who is also a victim of several violent crimes, life.
[/quote]

I had a difficult childhood too. I didn't go off robbing and killing innocent people.

Also, there is no way whatsoever that you can compare an unborn child who never harmed anyone to someone who cold-heartedly killed someone in that manner. And before you spout out some Berkeley la-la pinko nonsense about how it's not up to us to be judging innocent vs. guilty, I would point out 1 Peter 2:13-14 regarding governors commissioned "for the punishment of criminals and the recognition of the upright" (for the person who wanted a NT reference, there it is!).

Also, CCC 2267 says that bloodless means should be used not only when it is sufficient to protect human life but also to [b]protect public order and safety[/b]. Get it? [b]Public order[/b]. The criminal may no longer be a danger to society, but it may not be enough of a deterrant or [b]redress of the wrong[/b].

Now, I'm a bit skeptical of a lot of the applications of the death penalty based on how it was applied in Illinois, but in this case, I'm sorry, I cannot get worked up or shed a tear unless you show me DNA evidence or prosecutorial misconduct.

Edited August 27, 2006 by Norseman82

[Anomaly]

[quote name='ruso' post='1051501' date='Aug 27 2006, 03:16 AM']
Your God, is not my God.
Brother mine.
[/quote]LOL.
I don't think any of us 'own' God. When we lay claim to owning a 'god', we are choosing to make ourselves greater than that God.
God is what He/She/It is. We recognize that, or not.
Regardless, we are free to sometimes reap what we sow, to sometimes reap what we don't sow, to sometimes reap what others sow, to sometimes discard treasure we reap, to sometimes have our treasure stolen.
The only sure things in life are we live, we die, and there exists powers and existences beyond our ken. I don't own a God, nor do I claim to put limits on what powers I ascribe Him.

[Winchester]

I hope that after they execute him, he goes to Heaven.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='catholicinsd' post='1051061' date='Aug 26 2006, 03:47 PM']
All those example are from the Old Testament. We are not people of the Old Testament. We are people of the Gospel- the Gospel of an executed man.
[/quote]


Your forgetting the story from Acts where a man and wife are both struck down dead for just lieing, to St. Peter. The God of the Old Testament is the same God of The New, there is just simpley more focus on His mercy in the new, yet this doesnt God.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1051593' date='Aug 27 2006, 12:50 PM']
Also, CCC 2267 says that bloodless means should be used not only when it is sufficient to protect human life but also to [b]protect public order and safety[/b]. Get it? [b]Public order[/b]. The criminal may no longer be a danger to society, but it may not be enough of a deterrant or [b]redress of the wrong[/b].
[/quote]

I would like to also point out that other non-murders in prison, and the police that run it are part of "society", and they are in great danger to these murderist/rapist, who conitue to kill and rape in prison, so just throwing someone in prison that has killed innocent people, does not protect "society." It just endangers another group of society.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='catholicinsd' post='1051499' date='Aug 27 2006, 03:23 AM']
I think you must remember something about this case. Elijah had a very difficult childhood. His parents abused him, and would let others abuse him too, so they could get drugs. The alleged murder happened when Mr. Page only 18, just out of that hell of a childhood. Truly, we own Elijah Page, who is also a victim of several violent crimes, life.
[/quote]
Why do you say "alleged murder"? Are you saying that Page [i]didn't[/i], in fact, brutally torture his victim to death in cold blood?

[GodChild]

I'm from Australia so I have no idea what case your all talking about

The only thing I'd have to say is that justice is a double edged sword ... that is why Jesus tells us not to judge and it is for God to judge alone.
Justice applied correctly is a magnificent thing
but "justice" applied incorrectly and "justice" applied against an innocent is something abhorrent

God have mercy on everyone involved

[Socrates]

[quote name='catholicinsd' post='1051499' date='Aug 27 2006, 02:23 AM']
I think you must remember something about this case. Elijah had a very difficult childhood. His parents abused him, and would let others abuse him too, so they could get drugs. The alleged murder happened when Mr. Page only 18, just out of that hell of a childhood. Truly, we own Elijah Page, who is also a victim of several violent crimes, life.
[/quote]
Whether he had a "difficult childhood" is irrelevent to his guilt or innocence. In today's "victimhood culture", we absolve people of guilt or responsibility for their actions simply because they have undergone hardships or injustice. Only when people start taking responsibility for their own actions, and stop blaming others for their own misdeeds, will the cycle be broken.

If we learned that Hitler or Osama bin Laden were abused as a child, or had undergone other injustice, would that absolve them of their guilt?

[quote name='GodChild' post='1051740' date='Aug 27 2006, 05:47 PM']
I'm from Australia so I have no idea what case your all talking about

The only thing I'd have to say is that justice is a double edged sword ... that is why Jesus tells us not to judge and it is for God to judge alone.
Justice applied correctly is a magnificent thing
but "justice" applied incorrectly and "justice" applied against an innocent is something abhorrent

God have mercy on everyone involved
[/quote]
Well, according to the story posted, the man was guilty, and admitted his guilt.

And taking "judge not lest ye be judged yourself" out of context in this way would mean that no one could be convicted or punished of any crime, and that murderers, thieves, and rapists should be allowed to freely roam the streets (because convicting them would require judging them). That passage means judging the state of one's soul. We can judge whether actions are wrong and deserve punishment.

Edited August 28, 2006 by Socrates

[Anomaly]

Gahhh....
This has become my pet peeve.

"Jesus said don't judge."

He never said that. That is twisting Scripture so you can lie to yourself. The meaning is don't judge others to a standard you would not want to be judged.

Don't judge a murderer if you don't want to be judged the same if you murder someone. If you believe you forfeit your right as a human if you murder, then there is no problem with condemning a murderer. I don't kill people because I'm afraid I won't get away with it. I choose to not murder because I believe it destroys my humanity and society has every right to dispose of me like the sub-human I've chosen to become.

[catholicinsd]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1051646' date='Aug 27 2006, 02:39 PM']
Why do you say "alleged murder"? Are you saying that Page [i]didn't[/i], in fact, brutally torture his victim to death in cold blood?
[/quote]

Why are you focusing on one word?

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='catholicinsd' post='1051990' date='Aug 28 2006, 01:30 AM']
Why are you focusing on one word?
[/quote]
Because it's an important one. We use "alleged" when we don't know. In this case, we do. He did kill his victim to keep him from reporting the robbery. It was a cold-blooded murder. Not alleged-- actual. That the perpetrator had a terribly horrific childhood is a tragedy. That shouldn't happen to anyone. However, the victim in the crime being discussed it the robbery/murder victim.

[tojo]

I want to further discuss whther or not it is appropraite to say that the state is murdering Elijah Paige.

So I (think) I understand the point being made about the real difficulty is the state not showing mercy.

So the state has the ability to use non-lethal means to deter this murderer from harming society further (even "prison society," thru private cells, etc) other than execution (life in prison).........

it is therefore not necessary to kill him, right?

If it is not necessary to kill someone (necessary being scenarios like self-defense, kill or be killed, etc)........ but the person is killed, on purpose....... isn't that murder?

[tojo]

sorry for the double post

Edited August 28, 2006 by tomasio127

[catholicinsd]

[quote name='tomasio127' post='1052130' date='Aug 28 2006, 01:08 PM']
I want to further discuss whther or not it is appropraite to say that the state is murdering Elijah Paige.

So I (think) I understand the point being made about the real difficulty is the state not showing mercy.

So the state has the ability to use non-lethal means to deter this murderer from harming society further (even "prison society," thru private cells, etc) other than execution (life in prison).........

it is therefore not necessary to kill him, right?

If it is not necessary to kill someone (necessary being scenarios like self-defense, kill or be killed, etc)........ but the person is killed, on purpose....... isn't that murder?
[/quote]

Tom is absolutely right.

Mr. Page is sheduled to be killed by the State Tuesday at 10. God, Jesus, Spirit, Have Mercy. All ye Saints and Angels, pray for him.

Edited August 28, 2006 by catholicinsd

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='tomasio127' post='1052130' date='Aug 28 2006, 12:08 PM']
I want to further discuss whther or not it is appropraite to say that the state is murdering Elijah Paige.

So I (think) I understand the point being made about the real difficulty is the state not showing mercy.[/quote]

The state does show "mercy." The State no longer does public hangings, or beheadings, and the Murders have appeal after appeal, chance after chance. Mercy is shown.
[quote name='tomasio127' post='1052130' date='Aug 28 2006, 12:08 PM']
So the state has the ability to use non-lethal means to deter this murderer from harming society further (even "prison society," thru private cells, etc) other than execution (life in prison).........[/quote]

First off "Life is prison" is 25yrs in prison in most all cases, and then if there "good" they get out as early as 5 to 8 yrs!!!! Thats carp.

Execution is not just to "deter" it is [color="#FF0000"]punishment and justice[/color]

The state does not have the ability to keep every murder criminal in solitary confinement, it is just not possable, there is no space for them, and no money. Your living in the "what if", and what if just aint what is, sorry.

Someone that burtally takes the life of a innocent person forfits his or her own life. Even with private cells (which they have now) society is still in danger. Someone still must feed this person, care for this person and clean him or her when they defill themselves, which they do, and then when the police go in to clean them up the prisoner trys to kill the policemen.

[quote name='tomasio127' post='1052130' date='Aug 28 2006, 12:08 PM']
it is therefore not necessary to kill him, right?[/quote]

Wrong. It is necessary that the punishment fit the crime, you violently take the life of a innocent person you forfit your own life.

[quote name='tomasio127' post='1052130' date='Aug 28 2006, 12:08 PM']
If it is not necessary to kill someone (necessary being scenarios like self-defense, kill or be killed, etc)........ but the person is killed, on purpose....... isn't that murder?
[/quote]

But it is necessary to carry out justice.


[quote name='catholicinsd' post='1052153' date='Aug 28 2006, 01:54 PM']
God, Jesus, Spirit, Have Mercy. All ye Saints and Angels, pray for him.
[/quote]


I agree with this....

May God have mercy on his soul. I also pray for Divine Justice.

[Aloysius]

when someone commits a grave crime, they forfeit their right to live. it is the state's duty and obligation to either offer them a non-lethal punishment (which, when it is sufficient to protect society and is available, can be called the greater good) or to execute them.

any murderer who is executed has COMMITTED SUICIDE by the act of murder.

it would be impossible for a just government with a fair justice system to murder someone who was, in fact, a murderer. even if the justice system was not completely fair, it is impossible for the state to murder a murderer. even an unjust government could not murder a murderer.

it is a greater good to use non-lethal means when available and sufficient; but it is still a good to use lethal means. it is never murder.

in Christian morality: [b]homicide = suicide[/b] and it is just the state's job to bring that justice to completion.

notice the catechism says that non-lethal means are [i]more[/i] in keeping with human dignity, but not that lethal means are not in keeping with human dignity